Red Flag, SC or just Double Yellows??

[Scott]

I think it could have been safely removed with a SC period (which also would have tightened up the pack and led to a very exciting finish...but like Monty said, it might have meant that Rosberg didn't win, and that might have been too much for the Germans to take).

As it was, I believe Charlie totally blew that call and they were really lucky not to have had anything go wrong.

[Jericoke]

I missed the race, and forgot to tape it, so I have not seen the incident in question.

However, if Sutil's car was intact and could be moved off the track without equipment, then double yellow.

The Safety Car/Red Flag is reserved for when the track surface itself isn't fit for racing:  if safety features are damaged, or there is debris or fluids on track that marhsalls have to clean up.

Since I don't know how big a deal it was to remove Sutil's car, I didn't vote, just put in my 2 cents anyway.

[Scott]

I missed the race, and forgot to tape it, so I have not seen the incident in question.

However, if Sutil's car was intact and could be moved off the track without equipment, then double yellow.

The Safety Car/Red Flag is reserved for when the track surface itself isn't fit for racing:  if safety features are damaged, or there is debris or fluids on track that marhsalls have to clean up.

Since I don't know how big a deal it was to remove Sutil's car, I didn't vote, just put in my 2 cents anyway.

Really?  SC for debris on the track, but not for marshals and an abandoned on the track?   

[John S]

During the actual race at first I thought it must warrant a safety car, however Charlie instinctively knew that after all the field had passed the spot once they would be aware of why the double yellows were on and no one would make stupid moves towards or in the zone. - He's right of course. 

All he had to look for then was a gap in the traffic to get the marshals onto the stricken Sauber, the corner naturally meant the cars still racing would drift away from the marshals, the risk was deemed low enough not to bring out Bernd in yet another Mercedes. Also as Jeri pointed out there was no debris on the track to cause further problems.

Charlie is old school racing and never likes to bring out the S/C if he can avoid it, especially in the closing stages of a race.    Not sure any successor will have the balls to let a race run on in this way.

[Jericoke]

I missed the race, and forgot to tape it, so I have not seen the incident in question.

However, if Sutil's car was intact and could be moved off the track without equipment, then double yellow.

The Safety Car/Red Flag is reserved for when the track surface itself isn't fit for racing:  if safety features are damaged, or there is debris or fluids on track that marhsalls have to clean up.

Since I don't know how big a deal it was to remove Sutil's car, I didn't vote, just put in my 2 cents anyway.

Really?  SC for debris on the track, but not for marshals and an abandoned on the track?   

The drivers should know to look for marshalls, the marshalls should know to look for cars, and an abandoned F1 car is easy enough to avoid (assuming it isn't blocking the entire track)

Debris can be difficult for drivers to see, and is not smart enough to get out of the way of F1 cars.  Marshalls hunting for coin sized shards of carbon fibre are less attentive than marshalls shoving a car.

I'm not against deploying the safety car for every on track incident if that's what they want to do.  It just seems to sap the flow of the race, and it makes things 'artificial'.  (And just to open old wounds:  imagine if Piquet Jr could bring out the safety car without having to risk his life!)

[Monty]

Sorry, I am going to be contentious again.
We all keep saying that 'consistency' in F1 is what's required.
It cannot be consistent to put the safety car out when a car is stranded in the gravel or infield or when there is a bit of debris on the track but then not call for a safety car period when a car is stranded in the middle of the track.
There is no doubt that this was a really dangerous decision (or non-decision). It is not acceptable to assume that waved yellows would be sufficient. The cars were still passing the stranded car at over 100mph! If one of the passing drivers had a puncture or car failure mid corner they could have smashed straight into the car or the marshals.
Even more important it was ridiculous to allow marshals to run across the outfield grass and then the track at exactly the spot where a car would run-off if in trouble. The last marshal nearly stumbled and a car came round possibly less than a second after he made it to Sutil's car. If he had stumbled he could so easily have been on the ground right on the line of any of the passing cars. This could have been one of the worst disasters F1 has seen for many years.
It was with a sense of fun that I suggested it was a deliberate act to make sure a German won the German GP but I am absolutely clear that it was the worst piece of inaction I can remember the FIA taking in recent years and was completely inconsistent with all recent history.

[Irisado]

Double yellows were enough.  Double yellows specifically state that drivers must be prepared to slow down and take avoiding action.  The safety car would have been overkill.

I also don't buy the conspiracy theory.  The ultimate decision is Charlie Whiting's, he's not German, and so I can't see him not bringing out the safety car because they were racing in Germany.

By your argument Monty, we need a safety car every time a car stops, as those freak incidents could occur at any time when marshals are attending to even a car which has broken down well off track.  There will always be some risk involved with Formula 1, and the way in which Sutil's retirement was handled did not disproportionately increase that risk.

[lkjohnson1950]

Double yellows were fine until the marshals ran out on to the track. I don't understand why they did that. It seemed other marshals came from the pit wall as well, why weren't they enough? I think any time you have pedestrians in a spot where they can be struck by a race car you must deploy the SC. I think the operative factor was that it might have caused the race to finish under yellow. It takes a long time to reset the field behind the SC for a restart.

[Monty]

Double yellows were enough.  Double yellows specifically state that drivers must be prepared to slow down and take avoiding action.  The safety car would have been overkill.

Really????? Did you see any driver slow down enough that he could have avoided a marshal on the ground in the middle of the only clear piece of track? Do you really think it was consistent with decisions made through the rest of this season and previous seasons? If a car had hit a marshal or the stranded car would you be backing the decision?
I want to see racing and I get really annoyed when over-cautious race directors put the safety car out for bits of debris or when a car has gone off the track but is actually in a relatively safe position but Sutil's car was blocking at least half the width of the track, could have been stuck in gear (although it wasn't) and required marshals to run across the run-off area and the normal racing line to even assess the status of the car. It was crazy 

[Scott]

  I don't get it...it's as if you guys didn't see the race.  Monty's right on, and at least Lonny concedes that they should have put out the SC once the marshals were running all over the place. 

Generally I don't like the SC brought out unless there is no chance for a close finish (kidding), unless there is really a dangerous situation.  I never imagined the safety car was only for driver safety...thought it was also for track worker safety.

This situation was really dangerous.  Last race they red flagged it to repair a bit of Armco that had a zillion in one chance being hit again, and you guys are saying a double yellow is ok for half the track being blocked and marshals stumbling across the track.   

I am glad to see that the vast majority of those who voted, went for SC, so John and Irisado seem to be lone holdouts for the double yellows.  Even Lewis weighed in and said he thought it was a very dangerous situation (of course a SC would've helped him at the time.

[Monty]

there is no chance for a close finish (kidding),

they red flagged it to repair a bit of Armco that had a zillion in one chance being hit again

^ ^

[John S]

Sorry Scott and Monty just can't see what you are banging on about. 

Sure marshal safety is important but all of em know, or should do anyway, the risks they are being asked to take. If they think it's too dangerous - don't take the risk - tell the guy in charge of their marshal point why they shouldn't be on track.

Leaving the race running when possible has always been a trait of F1, the N. American series throw S/C equivalents so often the finish order usually bears no resemblance to the rest of the actual race. You'd almost think they've rigged it so the crowds come to see shunts and not the racing action.

The stoppage at the start of the British GP was already in progress so taking extra time over the barrier really is not relevant in this discussion, a better question is why it took so long to fix the damn thing with modern tools and methods available now.

[F1fanaticBD]

There is a car in the middle of track covering almost half of the width of the race track, and we do not require safety car deployment? How on earth someone comes to a conclusion like this? There are many instances where the safety car was deployed with sillier reasons. The race was stopped in the British Grand Prix, where something happening to the same barrier have much less chance than having another nasty accident here in German Grand Prix.

[Monty]

Leaving the race running when possible has always been a trait of F1

John which parallel F1 have you been watching? I have a terrible memory for specifics but I clearly remember screaming at the TV on many occasions when a safety car has been put out for no good reason.
I am not going to argue with anyone that has a different opinion to me about if it was safe to continue under yellows or not - I have made my views clear. However, I will argue about that key word consistency.
It was not consistent to continue under yellows with a car in the middle of the track and marshals running across the racing line which was the only clear part of the track available to the drivers after leaving a blind corner.
And again in my opinion it is not reasonable to allow (make) marshals take that level of risk. I have done a bit of marshalling and it is very tempting to run out on the track to collect debris or help a stranded car but you are not allowed to because it is stupidly dangerous. These guys were expected to guess if they could sprint across about 30metres of grass and track before a car doing over 100mph arrived around the corner. One very nearly guessed wrong!

[Scott]

... it is not reasonable to allow (make) marshals take that level of risk. I have done a bit of marshalling and it is very tempting to run out on the track to collect debris or help a stranded car but you are not allowed to because it is stupidly dangerous. These guys were expected to guess if they could sprint across about 30metres of grass and track before a car doing over 100mph arrived around the corner. One very nearly guessed wrong!

Absolutely.  The marshals are volunteers, and usually just massive fans.  Doesn't mean they should be put in a position to decide if something is dangerous or not.  Perhaps more important than this entire thread is to find out what brain surgeon told these three to dash across the track when there were obviously enough on the infield to pull the car off the track as we saw by the 20 or so that were later surrounding the car.