Did Mark Webber help create a Vettel F1 illusion?

[John S]

4 straight titles, sister car only 3rd best? - let's discuss.

Maybe without Mark as his teammate for 5 years Seb may, or may not, have such huge stats to live up to?   

Ant Musker on givemesport.com, see link below, attempts to rationalise Vettel's all conquering run with this year's shortcomings and comes up with the Webber connection as a possible explanation.     

It's certainly given me food for thought how about you?   

http://www.givemesport.com/499938-mark-webber-helped-create-the-sebastian-vettel-illusion?autoplay=on&undertone=off&utm_source=outbrain-rss&utm_medium=outbrain-rss&utm_campaign=outbrain-rss

[Scott]

I think it is a combination of factors. 

- I rate Mark Webber in the same class as DC.  Not a WDC, but a decent driver who, when the circumstances are right, can take a good car to victory.

- Vettel is a better driver than Mark, but also had a great deal of luck on his side that on the other hand went against Webber.  Combined with the RBR superiority during the last 4 years, it complimented Vettel very well.

- This year's new regulations do not suit Vettel's driving style, and on top of that, the RBR can only be considered 3rd fastest, maybe even 4th.

However, I think that Ricciardo is actually a much better driver than Vettel, and will soon make Vettel look as ordinary as Vettel made Mark look.

[Jericoke]

I believe that becoming a family man has taken Vettel's edge off as well.  Not all drivers lose that edge, but some do.

Maybe he'll rebound as life becomes 'normal' for him, maybe his time as champion is finished.

[Scott]

I guess that's possible.  He doesn't seem like the same guy as last year, especially pre and post race.  He just seems happier and less aggravated when things aren't going his way, and they really, really aren't going his way this year.

[lkjohnson1950]

Many, many things to consider here. Webber was leading the WDC one year when he crashed his mountain bike and broke his collarbone. He probably would have won otherwise. In at least one season he was simply too big to properly fit into and drive the car, surely not his fault. Vettel is better than Mark, but probably not as much as this writer thinks. The difference in down force between this year's car and the previous ones as well as the difference in tire construction undoubtedly make this car seem very twitchy and unstable to Vettel, while Ricciardo is used to the Toro Rosso, which did not have the stability of the R/Bs.  Is Daniel better than Seb? Wait a couple of years and see if R/B can recapture some of the lost aero and make Seb more comfortable, then Game On!. I never reckoned Seb up there with the Clarks, Moss', and Stewarts of the sport, but there is no doubt he is very good. Frankly I think Alonso is the best driver of this generation just a tick ahead of Hamilton. Ricciardo has my attention, but it takes time to be considered one of the "greats".

[Vince]

Frankly I think Alonso is the best driver of this generation just a tick ahead of Hamilton. Ricciardo has my attention, but it takes time to be considered one of the "greats".

I disagree initially by saying that I think that Hamilton despite his flaws, is overall a better driver than Alonso.

With regards to the point in principle, Ricciardo has really made Vettel look rather ordinary this year. The fact that the car doesn't suit Vettel's driving style, etc is by the by - they have the same car as each other and Ricciardo who was driving in F1 last year (and therefore knows what it's like to drive an inferior car) has made the most of his opportunity to drive with a top team. Because of this - not that he'll ever admit it, Vettel will be leaving RBR sooner rather than later... Watch this space.

[Irisado]

Alonso remains the best all round driver on the grid for me.  He doesn't have the one lap speed of some, but in the race, he's still the best.

To the topic specifically, and I think that we need to cast our minds back to 2010.  Webber was matching Vettel then, but then he had that big crash while leading Vettel in the rain at the Korean Grand Prix, and was never on Vettel's pace after that.  This combined with the bike accident seemed to take the edge of Webber, both psychologically and physically, making Vettel look faster than he actually was.

The fact that Alonso challenged Vettel for the title in both 2010 and 2012 with an inferior Ferrari, and the fact that Vettel should have lost in 2012 when he had the best car are also indicators that the German is overrated in my opinion.  Ricciardo is making him look pretty ordinary this year.  All the experienced drivers have had to cope with the shift to the new rules.  Vettel still has a good car (it is the engine that has been the problem, not the chassis), so if he's so good, why is an inexperienced team mate with only two previous seasons under his belt and a few races for Hispania in 2011 beating him in every race?  Vettel is not as good as some people thought he was.

[Ian]

I'll go along with Lonny and Irisado on Alonso being the best out there.

[Monty]

I would avoid any generalisations that suggest there is one driver that is demonstrably better than their piers in this sport of 'greats'.
It must be remembered that probably the best car on the grid was finely tuned to suit Vettel's style of driving. To be honest, if the regs hadn't changed so dramatically and the new power plants had not been introduced I think Vettel would still be at the front. I do not accept he was much better than Webber. The car was not set-up for Webber plus he had more of the bad luck out of the two. I also think it is too early to start talking about Ricciardo as being one of the greats. He is definitely very good but we haven't seen him on enough tracks to say he is 'great'.
I do think drivers can be 'grouped' due to their skills. Alonso, Hamilton and a few others are great racers. They take any car and drive it beyond its capabilities. Vettel, Button and others only hit their best when the car is perfect. Others drive with mechanical sympathy and will always score points; some are fantastic at getting a good single lap but are inconsistent throughout a race, etc.

[Scott]

I didn't really say that Ricciardo is one of the greats, just that he is on track to making Vettel look ordinary.

100% agree that Alonso is the best on the grid, but I personally don't rate Hamilton in the top 3 drivers. 

[Jericoke]

I didn't really say that Ricciardo is one of the greats, just that he is on track to making Vettel look ordinary.

100% agree that Alonso is the best on the grid, but I personally don't rate Hamilton in the top 3 drivers.

If you want to put Alonso above Hamilton, that's fine, but I don't know how you could put a gap between the two drivers.  Hamilton went point for point in the same equipment with the reigning WDC as a rookie. 

What I like about the debate we have these days is that in an age where the drivers are very close to being cookie cutters, the drivers are so very different in what we deem to make them great.  Kimi is cool and collected, Alonso brings performance where it seems impossible, Vettel can make his car run a perfect lap on demand, Hamilton is willing to take chances that others aren't.  Ricciardo knows how to recognize when he's at the right place at the right time.

Any given track, any given car, any given circumstances, one of these drivers is the best; but we've got 18 tracks, 3 cars and a surprising number of circumstances to fuel the debate.

[Scott]

That was years ago.  At the moment I rate the drivers Alonso - Ricciardo - Kimi (sorry, but he's my guy, and has impressed me more over the years than Hamilton), and then Hamilton.

[cosworth151]

I had never been that impressed with Alonso until this season. He has definitely wrung every last drop of performance out of a less than great car.

One other thing to consider about the change in Vettel: This season has seen the greatest year-to-year change in F1 cars in decades. Maybe Vettel is having a hard time adjusting to the current formula.

[Jericoke]

That was years ago.  At the moment I rate the drivers Alonso - Ricciardo - Kimi (sorry, but he's my guy, and has impressed me more over the years than Hamilton), and then Hamilton.

Since then Hamilton has won more races, more championships, and been savvy enough to be at the right team at the right team.

I guess it comes down to what makes someone a great driver... is it the ability to set qualifying times?  The ability to pass on a race track?  The ability to defend a position?

Part of what Vettel (and Schumacher before him) did was manage to be perfect at the exact time he needed to be perfect.

With all due respect to ALL the drivers on the grid (including Vettel), I don't think anyone is capable of that feat right now.  I do believe that Hamilton has shown the closest to this though