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Author Topic: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?  (Read 15177 times)

Offline Jericoke

Rules should penalise recklessness and negligence but they shouldn't stand in the way of innovation. It is right that in trying to maximise performance, F1 cars should be at the very edge of reliability. There shouldn't be penalties if they fall the wrong side of reliability as long as  the design had been thoroughly assessed before being adopted. It would be impossible to know if a component had failed or if it had been exposed to external stress i.e. Hulkenberg's wing might have hit a kerb or clipped another car causing a later failure. It would be grossly unfair to then penalise the team for the failure.

Would it be fair to penalize the team if Hulkenberg or Checo had a second failure of the same sort then?  Once is innovation, twice is negligence?

It should be relatively simple to demonstrate if the car suffered structural damage through normal racing incidents.  (In theory if that happened, the car is supposed to be black flagged though.  As you point out, it is hard to detect if such microscopic damage has occurred)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2015, 01:18:43 AM »
It is also possible that the design is sturdy enough, but the particular piece of carbon fiber was defective.
Lonny

Offline Willy

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2015, 02:12:13 PM »
If there is one thing F1 does not need it is another rule.
It is a dangerous sport and all those involved know this and accept it. As was mentioned there are waivers that cover this fact and the purchase of a ticket means you theoretically sign another waiver.
Cars breaking down etc is penalty enough and to add more woe to it is unnecessary.

Offline Scott

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2015, 07:20:11 PM »
Ok, lets compare it to something like track and field.  If a runner falls and while falling trips up another runner, is there going to be a penalty?  Of course not.  Even if it's the Gold medal heat of the 100m.  $hit happens in racing, wether it's running or F1. 

IMO if you want to talk about safety, it won't be about a wing falling off and damaging another car.  The discussion should be about tractors or other vehicles on the track when the track is hot, even with local yellows.  Bianchi's death a few weeks ago was the result of a horrible decision made by FIA officials who seemed to think the show is more important than safety, and that decision hasn't been addressed or had a policy built to prevent it from ever happening again.  VSC is a stupid rule.  In F1, until they fix the aero so that cars can run together, or engine rules so teams can catch up to one another, at the very least they should keep the normal SC rules so every now and again we can hope to have the cars bunched up again and have some exciting racing instead of watching the Mercedes disappear into the distance and the whole field spread out to put us to sleep on a Sunday afternoon.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Jericoke

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2015, 01:28:42 AM »
Ok, lets compare it to something like track and field.  If a runner falls and while falling trips up another runner, is there going to be a penalty?  Of course not.  Even if it's the Gold medal heat of the 100m.  $hit happens in racing, wether it's running or F1. 

IMO if you want to talk about safety, it won't be about a wing falling off and damaging another car.  The discussion should be about tractors or other vehicles on the track when the track is hot, even with local yellows.  Bianchi's death a few weeks ago was the result of a horrible decision made by FIA officials who seemed to think the show is more important than safety, and that decision hasn't been addressed or had a policy built to prevent it from ever happening again.  VSC is a stupid rule.  In F1, until they fix the aero so that cars can run together, or engine rules so teams can catch up to one another, at the very least they should keep the normal SC rules so every now and again we can hope to have the cars bunched up again and have some exciting racing instead of watching the Mercedes disappear into the distance and the whole field spread out to put us to sleep on a Sunday afternoon.

A runner falling isn't what I'm talking about.  It's closer to a runner's shoe falling off and spiking someone.

You're right... better safety precautions should be what the FIA is interested in.  What happened to Jules simply is unacceptable.  I'm just throwing int he pot that what happened to Hulkenberg lead to a yellow not because of anything that happened on track:  it was 100% preventable by better design.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2015, 04:07:51 AM »
F1 cars have always been on the edge of reliability. The shock that hit Massa, suspension failures on a plethora of cars. A few years ago someone lost the rear wing at the same spot as Hulkenberg. The rule book is fat enough without specing strength minimums for every part.
Lonny

Offline Andy B

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2015, 12:45:56 AM »
Jeri, the investigation into Jules Bianchi's accident did apportion some of the blame on the speed he was traveling at when he aquaplaned off the track (120mph) hence why the new VSC has a limit on time in a section to reduce speed. Accidents defined as: -

 "An accident is an incidental and unplanned event that could have been prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence. Most scientists who study unintentional injury avoid using the term "accident" and focus on factors that increase risk of severe injury and that reduce injury incidence and severity."

Engineers designing race cars are always constrained by safety and quite rightly so but not every factor can be foreseen and with every F1 car being a prototype its development is an ongoing process. If you go back 25 years and look at safety then it has moved on in leaps and bounds but can never be removed but that for drivers an fans is one of the attractions to the sport.

As for penalising drivers of teams for breakages we'll end up watching tractor racing!
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline John S

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Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #22 on: August 11, 2015, 12:29:52 PM »
Hear! Hear!  Andy, a good and balanced post IMHO.  :good:
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Scott

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #23 on: August 11, 2015, 08:55:05 PM »
No question speed was the cause of the accident, but I think if he had turtled under an steel tractor at half that speed the outcome wouldn't have been much different. 
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Steve A.

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2015, 10:15:19 PM »
So many variables, at half the speed the car would not have lifted the tractor off the ground, too many what it's. The safety car should have been there, the vsc is one of the main contributing factors as far as I'm concerned. Get rid asap.

Online cosworth151

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2015, 12:37:54 PM »
I was going to put this in a new thread but it seems to fit the discussion here. Franz Tost of Toro Rosso questions the design of the recovery vehicles. He makes a good point. Most of the vehicles used are designed for the construction industry and sit very high. That allows an F1 car to "submarine" the snatch tractor.

http://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/f1-safety-vehicles-are-not-all-safe-says-toro-rosso-boss
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Scott

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2015, 02:15:40 PM »
Simple answer.  Call SC out for any incidents requiring a tractor on any outside section or straightaway part of the track. 

Bin the VSC idea.

(DH1, the VSC was a knee jerk reaction to Bianchi's accident.  At the time of his accident the area was covered only by local yellow's...comepletely idiotic call by Charlie when a tractor was recovering Sutil's car).
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 02:21:03 PM by Scott »
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Steve A.

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2015, 06:39:59 PM »
Simple answer.  Call SC out for any incidents requiring a tractor on any outside section or straightaway part of the track. 

Bin the VSC idea.

(DH1, the VSC was a knee jerk reaction to Bianchi's accident.  At the time of his accident the area was covered only by local yellow's...comepletely idiotic call by Charlie when a tractor was recovering Sutil's car).

Aha, ok. It should be safety car only as far as I'm concerned.  As far as recovery vehicles are concerned similar to HGV's bars could be fitted to open areas.  But this would leave marshall open to flying carbon fibre following an impact.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2015, 01:26:41 AM »
Virtual Safety Car is a useful tool to have for one-off incidents that happen to be in awkward positions (e.g. a driver has parked the car at the inside of a corner nobody cuts, but a long way from the car access hole). Incidents where there's a reasonable risk of a duplicate accident (crash in straight line from braking zone, oil on the track, anything involving heavy rain), require a full Safety Car.

I'm not sure there's an effective method of getting all the recovery vehicles safe, especially since there's currently no such thing as a retrieval-in-race-orientated recovery vehicle and little market for one (most current vehicles are hired for the weekend before returning to their usual jobs; difficult to do if the vehicle's only designed for races). The better plan is to make sure the vehicles don't get struck in the first place.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Andy B

Re: Should there be penalties for when a car falls apart like Hulkenberg's?
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2015, 03:00:32 AM »
Probably the safest way to retrieve a car is using a crane and I'm surprise more are not used.
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

 


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