McLaren to get Mercedes power

[Monty]

It seems that McLaren are getting close to abandoning Honda and who could blame them.
I have never understood Honda's reluctance to use outside knowledge. The only consultant they have used in the past was still associated to the Honda family. They desperately need a Cosworth or an Ilmor but they just keep working secretly in Japan using in-house staff.
They did this with their MotoGP bikes for years - it was only when they started to let European consultants get involved that they had any success.
I would love to see McLaren Honda be successful but with the token system I can't see how Honda can now fix the problems with their Internal Combustion Engine which is apparently so badly balanced that it literally shakes itself to pieces! 

[John S]

I agree with all your comments about the Honda programme Monty, Renault had similar 'we can cope in house' issues which thankfully now seem over after Red Bull insisted on Illien's input being taken on board.

It's not too late for Honda to get the benefit of outside help, the infamous token system is not in place this year so any development is allowed. The only restriction is the number of engines they can use for the season before penalties apply. 

[J.Clark]

I don't understand why they would try to do it that way.

If one's objective is to be competitive, and eventually rise to the top, winning races, why refuse to accept outside the factory input?

I am wondering if it was an issue back when several teams were running Honda (10 -15 years ago).  Back then, it almost as much fun on betting on things like which team would blow up an engine first, or how many laps before a Honda powered car would blow up.

I realize completely that the Formula 1 power unit is almost nothing like that run in the Indy Car series, other than both are internal combustion Vees.  That said, if one can build a very successful engine for one series, it only follows that they should be able to do likewise in another series, regardless of the differences.

I too would enjoy seeing them be competitive.  I don't like it, and don't think it good for the sport, having teams that routinely can't compete, or in their case, finish a race.

[lkjohnson1950]

Engine Expert Gilles Simon Leaves McLaren Honda Team.
 They had a pretty experienced consultant but apparently ignored his advice.

http://www.givemesport.com/1000849-engine-expert-gilles-simon-leaves-mclaren-honda-team

[cosworth151]

Pretty much what I expected from Honda. As was mentioned in the other stream, Honda is chipping in free engines, $100 million and paying half the drivers' salaries. I don't think McLaren can afford to walk way from that and have to pay Merc $18.2 million for replacement engines.

On top of that, I wonder how much redesign the car would need to accept the new power train.

Ford gives it's engine types names like Coyote & Voodoo. Maybe the current Honda lump could be named "Ron's Revenge."

[J.Clark]

Something that I have found myself wondering about to some degree is, would this have happened if Ron Dennis was still with them?

I don't even pretend to know any of the politics of any of the teams.  I have observed over they years however, that politics has played heavily in some of the ups and downs of some teams, and McLaren is one of them.

As I review the time-line of some of the shifts in personnel at McLaren over the past few years, it appears at least, that one might make a case that Dennis was leveraged out because some wanted to make the jump to Honda, and  he may well have been the opposition to that move - standing in the way.

I never much cared for him, but did have to admit that he was pretty good at what he did.  I'm sure he was likely the focus of anger for some at McLaren, and in particular those near the top.  He may well be having a bit of a chuckle over the dilemma.

[Jericoke]

I don't understand why they would try to do it that way.

If one's objective is to be competitive, and eventually rise to the top, winning races, why refuse to accept outside the factory input?

That presumes the goal is to produce a winning programme.  It was my understanding that the previous programme was a 'prestige' programme to provide a reward to high achieving personnel as a way to entice top talent.

So, the question is Honda still attracting top talent who simply can't compete at the F1 level, but can make a family sedan sell millions of units at high margins?  If so, then it's a success, even if they're not winning.

Hiring someone outside the company might win F1 races, but would that help the company attract top talent?

[Monty]

Keeping it 'in-house' is quite Japanese. The bike companies did it for years until they really wanted to maintain a winning streak. Then some of them started to use Consultancy companies. Yamaha basically bought a consultancy company, renamed it Yamaha and now they help lots of other car and bike manufacturers.
Honda refused to do this with their bike developments (it was developed by HRC or not at all) and it has been the same with their F1 development. I do not know how they handle development in the US Racing series but F1 has been been dealt with on a 'top secret' basis in Honda. I believe Gilles Simon was really brought in by McLaren but was never allowed to get involved in the major decision making.
Honda need more than one man - they need an organisation with proven racing engine development talents!

[Warmwater]

In the olden days race cars had a "Riding Mechanic" and a bag of tools so repairs could be made on the side of the road. McLaren should adopt this system.

[Jericoke]

In the olden days race cars had a "Riding Mechanic" and a bag of tools so repairs could be made on the side of the road. McLaren should adopt this system.

I remember F1 in the 90s and 2000s, the cars were allowed unlimited communication with the pit walls, and they could tune the engine while the car was in motion.

I should think that if Mercedes could have shut down Lewis's car at Abu Dhabi last year they would have!

[ChrisCurtis]

I don't think anyone quite expected losing Ron would result in the team going even further down hill.

I suppose change(s) at the top in the middle of an engine crisis is always fraught with the risk of a backward step. Consistency after all is key.

It remains to be seen if McLaren have the nerve to front it out for the long term gain, probably 2019/20 now before they could consider being back at the front. Or, if they'll go for the quicker fix of trying to reintegrate the Mercedes engines.

I wonder if Manor had any left lying around that McLaren already have on a test bed somewhere?

[Alianora La Canta]

Manor's Mercedes supply would be available to potential customers in 2018. If McLaren were to abandon, Mercedes would probably be obliged to sell that supply cheap due to FIA pressure.