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Author Topic: Can Honda turn things around?  (Read 5589 times)

Offline Monty

Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2017, 01:04:12 PM »
I think some of the issues here are becoming pro-Honda versus Anti-Honda and that wasn't my point.
I am questioning if they have spread themselves too thin.
To my knowledge they are represented (as the actual manufacturer and not using a build partner) in:-
F1
Indy
Moto GP
World Superbike
World Touring Car
I assume they are also heavily supporting
British Superbike
British Touring Car

Yes they have some success in Indy and they are mid-pack but pushing to the front in World Touring Car. But surely the series they want (need) to have success in are F1, MotoGP and World Superbikes; i.e. the series that get Global attention.
They are failing badly in all of these series.

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2017, 02:38:36 PM »
May be it is just the way Honda operates, makes them look bad. We know Honda did not make any impact before pulling out in 2008, but had they stayed, they would be celebrating a great team effort which was done in the guise of Brawn. I doubt without the engine of Mercedes, they would not have been the world champion, but at least they would have been competitive for  sure.

I think for Honda and Toyota the lack of experience in their management teams are the culprits for making hasty decisions and making the brand look terrible. This sports are entirely based on either Europe or America, so one should employ and empower a person who knows the know-how of these region to become successful, not make boardroom decisions in Tokyo.
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Offline cosworth151

Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2017, 04:02:30 PM »
Honda also got it's first IMSA GTD (GT3) win at Detroit over the week-end. Katherine Legge & Andy Lally drove Mike Shank's car. Shank's Acrua team gets direct factory backing from Honda.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline John S

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Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #18 on: June 05, 2017, 07:28:46 PM »

I am questioning if they have spread themselves too thin.
To my knowledge they are represented (as the actual manufacturer and not using a build partner) in:-
F1
Indy
Moto GP
World Superbike
World Touring Car
I assume they are also heavily supporting
British Superbike
British Touring Car


I guess it depends on what you regard as a build partner, in F1, World & British Touring cars and Indy the actual car chassis are fettled by others. I think in Moto GP they have total build control of both bike and engines, in other bike series I'm not so sure.

Mugen also take on quite a lot of Honda engine development, and occasionally car build, in other series.

Mercedes are also in a lot of other series, albeit with chassis build partners. I think Merc even owns a motorbike brand now as well - as does VW/Audi group I believe.

Now just because a bike brand is under a different name is it really separate? Perhaps we should view Honda 2 wheels as separate from their 4 wheel activities?  :DntKnw:

 
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Monty

Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2017, 09:40:31 AM »
Quote
I guess it depends on what you regard as a build partner, in F1, World & British Touring cars and Indy the actual car chassis are fettled by others. I think in Moto GP they have total build control of both bike and engines, in other bike series I'm not so sure.

Mugen also take on quite a lot of Honda engine development, and occasionally car build, in other series.

Mercedes are also in a lot of other series, albeit with chassis build partners. I think Merc even owns a motorbike brand now as well - as does VW/Audi group I believe.

Now just because a bike brand is under a different name is it really separate? Perhaps we should view Honda 2 wheels as separate from their 4 wheel activities?
That's sort of my point.
Mercedes (Germany) do not build their F1 cars; they have an F1 division.
Renault (France) do not build their F1 cars; they have an F1 division
Volkswagon Audi Group (Germany) do not build their motorbikes; Ducati do that and even they have a separate Motor Racing Division

Obviously Honda do not build the F1 cars but they do build the engines, the Indy car engines, the MotoGP bikes, the World Superbikes and the engines for World Touring cars all in-house. As far as I can see no other manufacturer keeps so much in-house and I wonder if this policy is limiting?

Online Jericoke

Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2017, 03:15:58 PM »
Quote
I guess it depends on what you regard as a build partner, in F1, World & British Touring cars and Indy the actual car chassis are fettled by others. I think in Moto GP they have total build control of both bike and engines, in other bike series I'm not so sure.

Mugen also take on quite a lot of Honda engine development, and occasionally car build, in other series.

Mercedes are also in a lot of other series, albeit with chassis build partners. I think Merc even owns a motorbike brand now as well - as does VW/Audi group I believe.

Now just because a bike brand is under a different name is it really separate? Perhaps we should view Honda 2 wheels as separate from their 4 wheel activities?
That's sort of my point.
Mercedes (Germany) do not build their F1 cars; they have an F1 division.
Renault (France) do not build their F1 cars; they have an F1 division
Volkswagon Audi Group (Germany) do not build their motorbikes; Ducati do that and even they have a separate Motor Racing Division

Obviously Honda do not build the F1 cars but they do build the engines, the Indy car engines, the MotoGP bikes, the World Superbikes and the engines for World Touring cars all in-house. As far as I can see no other manufacturer keeps so much in-house and I wonder if this policy is limiting?

The policy is limiting to a certain degree, but it's nice to see that racing is part of the company, not some side project with their own agenda.  I know that 'Enstone' employees don't really think of themselves as 'Renault'.  They're racing for themselves.  It's a cynical world, and seeing large companies pay for someone else's work and then slap their own name on it just becomes more and more painful.

You know when Honda shows up on the grid, that's Honda.  The same with Williams, Sauber and Ferrari.

Offline Andy B

Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2017, 10:18:35 PM »
I know that 'Enstone' employees don't really think of themselves as 'Renault'.  They're racing for themselves. 

Out of interest Jeri how do you know that?
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Online Jericoke

Re: Can Honda turn things around?
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2017, 03:27:53 PM »
I know that 'Enstone' employees don't really think of themselves as 'Renault'.  They're racing for themselves. 

Out of interest Jeri how do you know that?

from Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_in_Formula_One

  • 1981 Tolemen joins F1
  • 1985 Benetton buys Tolemen and renames the team
  • 2000 Renault buys Benetton, but retains the name (as they don't want a losing team to tarnish the brand)
  • 2002 Renault changes the name to Renault
  • 2010 Genii buys Renault but retains the name Renault
  • 2011 Team is renamed to Lotus Renault (not to be confused with Team Lotus).  Also, runs as an English team instead of French
  • 2012 Renamed to Lotus F1
  • 2015 Team is purchased by Renault
  • 2016 Team is renamed Renault
  • Note:  'Enstone' is in no way associated with the Renault Elf team that ran from 1978 to 1985.  They actually competed against each other from 81 to 85.  (And for that matter raced against a different Team Lotus in the 80s and 90s)

An interview with Boullier (I think) in 2012 asked what he thought about the changing team name, he said he thought of the team as 'Enstone'.  It was the same group of people who made the team, not their corporate overlords (my words, but his idea).

I don't think that any team on the grid has had more names, not even Mercedes (Brawn, Honda, BAR, Tyrrell)

 


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