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Author Topic: Max V  (Read 494 times)

Online Calman

Max V
« on: April 16, 2018, 03:39:18 AM »
  • Publish
  • Q: How much to you tame him?

    If you do, will he become a better all round driver, will it eliminate his errors in judgement or will you kill his fighting spirit???

    If you were his manager/coach, how would you move forward?

    All the best,
    Cal :)


    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline Scott

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #1 on: April 16, 2018, 06:48:47 AM »
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  • I think this race was the exception (plus the RBR management probably let him know after the first two races that he is already on thin ice).  He will continue to barge his way through situations and will be caught out more often than not.  He will go down as another 'Could have' in history.  If the apology tells me anything, it is that he is hoping to one day drive for Ferrari.
    The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

    Offline Luke

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #2 on: April 16, 2018, 01:32:11 PM »
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  • I have begun to warm to his style and I think there is a place for him in the sport.  Of course he crashes and is risky, but he is not really Maldonado like and just 'crashes', his mind is perhaps better than the Red Bull, or indeed any F1 car, but it would be awfully boring without someone like him taking chances and mixing up the running order  :D
    Poster formerly known as Williamsfan.

    Online Dare

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #3 on: April 16, 2018, 02:32:21 PM »
  • Publish
  • Wonder how a lesser team without RB's finances would
    put up with his tearing up their equipment. If he was gone
    tomorrow I wouldn't miss him or his I'm never wrong attitude.
    "The
    democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
    who are
    willing to work and give to those who would not."
    --
    Thomas
    Jefferson

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #4 on: April 16, 2018, 03:00:37 PM »
  • Publish
  • If the apology tells me anything, it is that he is hoping to one day drive for Ferrari.

    Ferrari may already be looking at another RBR driver who will become a free agent at the end of the season.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline Jericoke

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #5 on: April 16, 2018, 03:12:56 PM »
  • Publish
  • We've all seen 'reckless' drivers mature. 

    Hamilton seemed to spend an entire season sharing body work between his McLaren and Massa's Ferrari.

    Grosjean has left behind his 'wrecking Romain' nickname as well.

    Passing a formula one car with pinpoint precision is tough, so hopefully Max is still learning.  It's not a question of reigning in his reckless attitude, but a question of how quickly he will learn.

    Offline Scott

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #6 on: April 16, 2018, 06:51:13 PM »
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  • I have begun to warm to his style and I think there is a place for him in the sport.  Of course he crashes and is risky, but he is not really Maldonado like and just 'crashes', his mind is perhaps better than the Red Bull, or indeed any F1 car, but it would be awfully boring without someone like him taking chances and mixing up the running order  :D

    Ricciardo has given the rest of the field classes in 'how to pass spectacularly' on many occasions.  On top of that, he finishes races except when he is hit or has mechanical issues.  On top of THAT, he's a friendly funny guy.  Win, win, win.

    Oh yeah, he's also 17 points ahead of Max after 3 races.   ;) ;)

    Just my opinion, but the sport can do just fine without a guy like Max.  :tease:
    « Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 09:30:22 PM by Scott »
    The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

    Offline Luke

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #7 on: April 16, 2018, 07:52:58 PM »
  • Publish
  • I like Ricciardo as much as the next guy and since Button retired he has become my favourite driver.  So much so that if Williams could sign anyone (or forcefully handcuff them to the car) I would want that person to be Ricciardo. 

    But I think the sport needs a 'bad guy' or pantomime villain.  The others are just too PC, too full of PR and their own brands.  I would hate it if Verstappen drove for a team I followed, but as a neutral he adds excitement and gives us all someone to scream at when watching on TV. 
    Poster formerly known as Williamsfan.

    Offline Jericoke

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #8 on: April 16, 2018, 09:41:22 PM »
  • Publish
  • But I think the sport needs a 'bad guy' or pantomime villain.  The others are just too PC, too full of PR and their own brands.  I would hate it if Verstappen drove for a team I followed, but as a neutral he adds excitement and gives us all someone to scream at when watching on TV.

    I don't know that we need a 'bad guy', but we do need a conflict of some sort.  Prost/Senna was always 'precision' vs 'passion'.

    It's hard to label Vettel vs Hamilton.  They're both very well rounded drivers.  (Don't get me wrong, Prost and Senna were well rounded drivers too, they just were happy to embrace their 'persona')  Hamilton wants to be everything to everyone, and so does Vettel.  Kimi is the Ice Man, Ricciardo is the Nice Guy, and they seem to embrace it.  Having them head to head would provide more story than Hamilton and Vettel.

    With that in mind, maybe someone is feeding Max's reckless tendencies just to have another 'personality' in the sport.

    However, given Vettel's defense of Hamilton after the Australian GP, maybe they can be played up as best friends trying to outdo each other (as Rosberg and Hamilton were portrayed at the outset)

    Online Calman

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #9 on: April 17, 2018, 12:44:58 AM »
  • Publish
  • I like Ricciardo as much as the next guy and since Button retired he has become my favourite driver.

    I'm in the same boat Luke! .... although I liked to see Massa do well, I agree that since Jenson's retirement, I like Danny Ric's approach to the sport.   He likes a laugh and a joke, but knows when to knuckle down and deliver on race day (especially those late braking specials!!!).

    As far as Max, he clearly isn't as bad as Pastor and Romain at "their worst" ... he just makes silly mistakes or poorly assesses "calculated risks".   I know there will be a ton of good/bad luck in the races to come, but I sincerely hope that Max's tangle with Seb won't become a crucial turning point, or more so, cost Seb the title with a close points difference by the end of the season!!!

    All the best,
    Cal :)

    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #10 on: April 17, 2018, 09:16:08 AM »
  • Publish
  • "Tame" is the wrong word. What needs to happen is Max needs to understand that meeting his ambitions really does require a change of approach. I think that's started to sink in this race, but expect it to take a few more before he finds a good balance between his natural talent and the need for at least a modicum of race-protecting skills. The variety of racing lines possible (not just the ones Max actually uses vs the "traditional" line). How to spot when a move is on vs when it is not. How to use "dummy" moves, truly effective use of DRS, and variations in energy use, so that Max is no longer dependent on only one way to overtake (and, by extension, mean his competitive instincts are less likely to lead him astray - teaching someone to make a different move work is more effective and also quicker than simply teaching them to "be cautious". He can work on that later - if necessary).

    Once the race-protecting skills are in place, Max probably will be able to decide how much, if anything, to tame himself without anyone else needing to intervene. This is a skill deficit hampered by (until now) encouragement to reject learning and improvement from powerful backers, not a "pure" driving style failure. The Red Bull management appears to have started to release Max from the grip of being the "golden boy" (the "someone is feeding Max's reckless tendencies" is Helmet Marko, the head of Red Bull's young driver program and 2nd-in-command in the Red Bull infrastructure), which means coaching to skill now has a decent chance of working.

    If people don't teach Max race-protecting skill, it may preserve his fighting spirit but Max will never win a race on merit (in various ways, I believe all 3 of his current wins were boosted by actions that would have merely led to punishment had anyone else tried them).

    If people teach Max the race-preserving skills and then trust his autonomy after he has shown he understands them, I think he will become the great racer he was always meant to be. He doesn't have the tactical cynicism that Michael Schumacher had, so I think he can skip the downside of that approach while still getting its substantial upside. It would also increase his trust of the coaching techniques so that if he needs them for any reason later in his career, he can fix problems "on the fly" with their help, instead of having the same weakness in his driving for 4 years for no good reason. The things we're complaining about here lost Max the F3 title... ...learning to fix them will help him not lose the F1 title.

    If people teach Max the race-protecting skills and then also try to dictate to him how to integrate them into his driving style, that could, in theory, kill his fighting spirit. Sometimes, it's not just about what is taught, it's about what is not taught. More likely, however, it would lead to the advice simply being ignored unless/until someone Max actually respects teaches the same things. While I don't think Max is particularly prideful, he is particularly stubborn ;) In this case, simply teaching how to protect races is likely to be the most effective way to help Max.

    As for "hope to drive for Ferrari..." If Max wanted that, he should have waited to join the Ferrari young driver development program when it was available, instead of assuming his choices were Red Bull or Mercedes. Ferrari doesn't like feeling forced into young driver choices, and in any case also requires certain personality parameters to be met that Max would not have been ready for at 16 (assuming that he wasn't about to buy his way into the program like Lance Stroll once did). From then on, Max restricted himself to Mercedes or Red Bull (with the emphasis on the latter).

    As it stands, it's pretty obvious to me that Ferrari is hoping to put Leclerc in its car (with the aim being 2020 rather than 2019 - good for Raikkonen, less good for Verstappen or any other interloper). If Vettel retires unexpectedly, things may change - but they'll need to see skill improvement, not merely an apology, to seriously consider Verstappen.

    There is a place for wild drivers (not just young ones) in F1. It is not with someone who expects to regularly win races while still carrying said driving style. I'm not sure Pastor Maldonado ever seriously expected to win a race, but Max does... Yes, it's fun to watch them, and it's fun to watch them mature, but those two steps come before regular winning. Max is in his 4th season of F1 and carries title ambitions; it's simply not appropriate to what he wants from his participation in F1 to continue to be reckless.

    Similarly, F1 needs a pantomime villain. But pantomime villains always lose in the end. Max detests losing and is therefore a bad fit for the role. (Again, contrast Pastor, who seemed to be uncomfortably resigned to losing, rather than burning inside from it). Since most F1 drivers hate losing, I prefer the "pantomime villain" role to have a rolling identity from year to year, rather than one driver occupying it for many seasons in a row. Permanently unhappy drivers don't do well in any role. It's time to let someone else be "pantomime villain" for a season, if that's possible, and not force Max to continue carrying the burden for people's entertainment.

    We know how a lesser team would handle Max's driving and attitude. Toro Rosso basically fired him after China 2016 (meaning he effectively won the Spanish Grand Prix following it due to sloppy driving and a bad attitude), hence why he is in Red Bull at all...

    Hamilton's persona is "hip guy who hangs out with Hollywood and lives life by his own rules". Vettel's is "regular man next door who happens to be good at racing cars". So there is a conflict there... ...except the media doesn't appear to want to pick up this one after 2007 soured them to the approach, and both drivers are sympathetic to each other, if not exactly friends (and certainly not acting like friends on-track!)

    I'd like to think that Max's collision with Seb is a crucial turning point... ...the point where Max realised he needs to broaden his repertoire, to succeed in winning the F1 world title as he wishes to do.
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Offline Luke

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #11 on: April 17, 2018, 12:16:01 PM »
  • Publish
  • It seems that Jos Verstappen (who although I do not remember much racing, I am aware had something of a reputation in F1) has given Max a public telling off, saying he needs to think more before he drives into, I mean tries to overtake other cars. 

    Maybe this will be the moment that calms him down.

    Yeah I doubt it too.
    Poster formerly known as Williamsfan.

    Online Calman

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #12 on: April 17, 2018, 07:29:31 PM »
  • Publish
  • Do you think that Max made a habit of running at the gap on the "wrong side" of Supermarket Turnstiles as a toddler?  :DD



    All the best,
    Cal :)
    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline Luke

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #13 on: April 17, 2018, 07:54:13 PM »
  • Publish
  • I'd suggest that goes without saying!
    Poster formerly known as Williamsfan.

    Offline Scott

    Re: Max V
    « Reply #14 on: April 17, 2018, 08:16:53 PM »
  • Publish
  • Fantastic summary by Ali as usual.  I think you nailed it.  He needs to learn race protection.  Can he?  Good question.
    The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

    pre-erected f1 camping and glamping with intentsGP