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Author Topic: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?  (Read 558 times)

Offline Calman

Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
« on: May 16, 2018, 03:02:53 AM »
  • Publish
  • Anyone heard about this?

    https://thejudge13.com/2018/05/15/more-ferrari-cheating-allegations/

    It never fails does it! ... every time the dust settles, more sour grapes , another investigation or fresh allegations surface!!

    All the best,
    Cal :)


    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline John S

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #1 on: May 16, 2018, 10:36:06 AM »
  • Publish
  • Twas ever thus in F1.
    If you ain't bending the rules you're not really serious.

    Pretty interesting to hear about potential fiddling with the electrical power. Just hope Seb & Kimi have rubber underwear.  :D

    Anyone know if a proper explanation for Seb's extra paddle on back of his steering wheel has emerged? 
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

    Online Robem64

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #2 on: May 16, 2018, 10:53:23 AM »
  • Publish
  • Quote
    Anyone know if a proper explanation for Seb's extra paddle on back of his steering wheel has emerged?

    Maybe that's his earthing point  :DntKnw:
    "I'm not a pessimist, I'm an optimist with experience"

    Offline Jericoke

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #3 on: May 16, 2018, 02:31:28 PM »
  • Publish
  • 1)  Most rules are aimed at cost cutting.  One of F1's biggest expenses is operating a wind tunnel.  If Ferrari and Haas want to share that information, then that's right in the spirit of cutting costs.  Go for it.

    2)  I think it's absurd that the electrical portion of the power unit is regulated for anything beyond safety.  The ICE is regulated to the stone age, so the innovation should be coming from electrical recovery and deployment (which is VERY road car applicable).  Take the leash off, and we'll see the silly penalties on the overworked ICE replacement parts vanish as it becomes the lesser part of an F1 car.

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #4 on: May 16, 2018, 04:06:25 PM »
  • Publish
  • Twas ever thus in F1.
    If you ain't bending the rules you're not really serious.


    Stretching the rules have always been a part of every branch of motorsports. We even had a joke about it on the dirt ovals, saying that someone "wasn't cheating fair."

    There is a famous old NASCAR story about legendary car builder Smokey Yunick. The officials did a complete inspection of one of his cars, including removing the gas tank. After the inspection, they gave Smokey a list of 11 infractions that they found. He said, "Boys, make it an even dozen." He tossed the gas tank on the passenger side floor, fired up the car & drove it away. They never did find where he hid the extra fuel. (He later said that it was in some of the frame tubing).
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #5 on: May 17, 2018, 08:04:09 AM »
  • Publish
  • 1)  Most rules are aimed at cost cutting.  One of F1's biggest expenses is operating a wind tunnel.  If Ferrari and Haas want to share that information, then that's right in the spirit of cutting costs.  Go for it.

    2)  I think it's absurd that the electrical portion of the power unit is regulated for anything beyond safety.

    One of the things that makes there any point for a constructor to bother with F1, rather than save a huge amount and do a different series, is unique IP. If the data-sharing breaches IP, then that undermines everyone else's purpose for doing F1 at all.

    As for the electricity, one of the points of not allowing more than a minimal amount of electricity outside the engine is safety. Besides the element where electricity outside the engine has no safety regulation for the driver, it also means the marshals cannot tell if they need to use their electrical safety procedures if a car like this gets stranded.
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Online Robem64

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #6 on: May 17, 2018, 02:39:17 PM »
  • Publish
  • One things official - the halo wing mirrors, which Ferrari sported at the weekend, are now banned.

    The sport's governing body, the FIA, did not approve of the way the mirrors were mounted to the halo head-protection device on the car.

    Teams may still mount mirrors on the halo following a rule clarification, but they must have only an "incidental or minimal" aerodynamic effect.


    The FIA felt Ferrari's mirrors gave them too much aerodynamic gain.


    In future, any team that wants to mount wing mirrors on the halo must do so with only a single mounting, or any secondary one must satisfy two criteria:

    It must provide a "meaningful structural contribution to the mounting system", which teams may be asked to demonstrate to officials
    It must be "mounted to the lower and/or inboard surface(s) of the mirror housing"
    "I'm not a pessimist, I'm an optimist with experience"

    Offline Jericoke

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #7 on: May 17, 2018, 05:07:33 PM »
  • Publish
  • 1)  Most rules are aimed at cost cutting.  One of F1's biggest expenses is operating a wind tunnel.  If Ferrari and Haas want to share that information, then that's right in the spirit of cutting costs.  Go for it.

    2)  I think it's absurd that the electrical portion of the power unit is regulated for anything beyond safety.

    One of the things that makes there any point for a constructor to bother with F1, rather than save a huge amount and do a different series, is unique IP. If the data-sharing breaches IP, then that undermines everyone else's purpose for doing F1 at all.

    As for the electricity, one of the points of not allowing more than a minimal amount of electricity outside the engine is safety. Besides the element where electricity outside the engine has no safety regulation for the driver, it also means the marshals cannot tell if they need to use their electrical safety procedures if a car like this gets stranded.

    It is Ferrari's and Haas's property to do with as they wish.  The broken rule isn't a former mechanic sneaking data out of the factory, the broken rule is that Ferrari and Haas are freely sharing information that they own.  I think forcing each team to do their own research isn't in the spirit of making the sport accessible or balanced.

    I agree bypassing the regulator is dangerous, however, the regulator itself isn't for safety but to limit the performance of the car.  Of course they'll bypass the part of the car intended to slow it down.

    (Also, if we're worried about marshals/mechanics/etc. being electrocuted, can't they just be equipped with grounding strips?)

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #8 on: May 18, 2018, 08:15:33 AM »
  • Publish
  • The broken rule is that IP is being swapped about, which will inevitably be contained within the data being shared between Ferrari and Haas. Simply because it's not a rogue employee doesn't change the data movement and therefore does not reduce the amount of breach of the rule that all IP of non-listed components must be the constructor's own.

    In this case, part of the reason the regulation exists is so that teams see a point in being in F1 and not cut their losses to go to "lesser" series. Why join an all-constructor series if non-constructors are allowed to beat someone playing by the overt rules?
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #9 on: May 18, 2018, 05:02:59 PM »
  • Publish
  • I wonder how much info travels between Red Bull & Toro Rosso. I'm sure it was the same with Honda & Super Aguri, except that Aguri-san did a far better job with it than Honda did.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline John S

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #10 on: May 18, 2018, 05:38:51 PM »
  • Publish
  • I wonder how much info travels between Red Bull & Toro Rosso. I'm sure it was the same with Honda & Super Aguri, except that Aguri-san did a far better job with it than Honda did.

    The year Aguri-san beat the factory team was the year the FIA allowed lower teams to use the last years factory teams chassis. Toro Rosso similarly shone brightly with the previous years Red Bull chassis. This only goes to gives credence to Alia's exclusive IP statement, since this chassis/information sharing arrangement is now firmly outlawed.

    Why will Renault & even Merc continue to pour massive sums and resources into F1 if a modestly funded team breaching the rules on individual and independent chassis construction continues to climb the championship ladder courtesy of access to a factory team's IP?  :confused:

    Red Bull seem to share very little with STR these days, in fact they have often been running different makes of engine, not much chance for synchronicity in a meaningful way then.
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #11 on: May 18, 2018, 05:46:57 PM »
  • Publish
  • Aero & suspension really don't care what engine is pushing it, as McLaren is now learning.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #12 on: May 18, 2018, 09:06:54 PM »
  • Publish
  • One things official - the halo wing mirrors, which Ferrari sported at the weekend, are now banned.

    The sport's governing body, the FIA, did not approve of the way the mirrors were mounted to the halo head-protection device on the car.

    Teams may still mount mirrors on the halo following a rule clarification, but they must have only an "incidental or minimal" aerodynamic effect.


    The FIA felt Ferrari's mirrors gave them too much aerodynamic gain.


    In future, any team that wants to mount wing mirrors on the halo must do so with only a single mounting, or any secondary one must satisfy two criteria:

    It must provide a "meaningful structural contribution to the mounting system", which teams may be asked to demonstrate to officials
    It must be "mounted to the lower and/or inboard surface(s) of the mirror housing"


    That completely misses the point of the problem with Halo wing mirrors in the first place. Now I've finally been convinced it's not a liability in itself, I don't want people attaching mini-liabilities to it...
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #13 on: May 18, 2018, 09:12:00 PM »
  • Publish
  • The year Aguri-san beat the factory team was the year the FIA allowed lower teams to use the last years factory teams chassis. Toro Rosso similarly shone brightly with the previous years Red Bull chassis. This only goes to gives credence to Alia's exclusive IP statement, since this chassis/information sharing arrangement is now firmly outlawed.

    The IP rule was put in for the 2009 season (with the cut-off being January 1 of that year). Toro Rosso had to get its own independent aero CFD pretty sharpish when that happened...

    Your statement that Super Aguri and Toro Rosso both benefitted from more lax policies prior to this (that were themselves controversial) is correct. The last beneficiary was Brawn, because it received aero data from both Honda and Super Aguri (the latter discovered the critical double diffuser concept in the last fortnight before the team was closed - what could have been...) and this helped make Brawn the only team with a 100% championship-winning record in F1 history.
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Ferarri Cheating - FIA Investigations?
    « Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 10:17:53 PM »
  • Publish
  • What many people don't remember is the Super Aguri's first F1 car, the SA05, was built on the Arrows A23 chassis. They were sold off when Arrows went under.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan