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Author Topic: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.  (Read 6136 times)

David

  • Guest
Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2010, 08:06:37 PM »
You have to respect Sir Stirling Moss but that fall seems to have cause damage.  :crazy:

Over rated, under challenged, not one of the best driver F1 has ever seen, not a legend in his field!!! What a load of B****cks.  >:( Some people must have been watching a different sport than I did. The man dominated the sport for years and was the man to beat from his entry to the arena. Not to mention the wins, podiums, pole positions, fast laps. Oh, and 7 world drivers championships and the fact that 90%+ of the worlds population knows who he is, motor sport fan or not. Like him or loathe him it will be a while before this man is topped.

Offline Scott

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2010, 08:12:33 PM »
One thing that used to astonish me was when Brawn would call from the pit wall that MS needed to get in 5-6 fastest laps before his next pit stop to make it past someone.  On used tires, he would step up and do just that.  He could drift his Ferrari through s-turns like nobody else.   :o

The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Jericoke

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2010, 08:42:20 PM »
You have to respect Sir Stirling Moss but that fall seems to have cause damage.  :crazy:

Over rated, under challenged, not one of the best driver F1 has ever seen, not a legend in his field!!! What a load of B****cks.  >:( Some people must have been watching a different sport than I did. The man dominated the sport for years and was the man to beat from his entry to the arena. Not to mention the wins, podiums, pole positions, fast laps. Oh, and 7 world drivers championships and the fact that 90%+ of the worlds population knows who he is, motor sport fan or not. Like him or loathe him it will be a while before this man is topped.

It does feel funny having to extol Schumacher's virtues on an F1 forum, especially for those of us who cheered against him.

Offline Dare

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2010, 10:52:48 PM »
If 7 titles doesn't make MS specials then what's
that say about Moss?last time I looked he had
a few less than that.Maybe if he'd been special
he might have one and had the concentration required
to not fall thru a elevator shaft.
"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline SennaMan

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Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2010, 03:48:50 AM »
If 7 titles doesn't make MS specials then what's
that say about Moss?last time I looked he had
a few less than that.Maybe if he'd been special
he might have one and had the concentration required
to not fall thru a elevator shaft.

you are a hard man Dare...

[from "Stirling MOSS" - Wikipedia article]

"Moss's first Formula One win was in 1955 at his home race, the British Grand Prix at Aintree, driving the Mercedes-Benz W196 Monoposto for a convincing 1-2-3-4 win for the German marque. It was the first race where he finished in front of Juan Manuel Fangio, his teammate, friend, mentor and arch rival at Mercedes. It is sometimes debated whether Fangio, one of the all-time great gentlemen of sport, yielded the lead at the last corner to let Moss win in front of his home crowd. Moss himself asked Fangio repeatedly, "Did you let me win?" and Fangio always replied, "No. You were just better than me that day".
 
Moss shared this Vanwall VW5 with Tony Brooks to win the 1957 British Grand Prix.One of his best remembered drives was in the 1955 Mille Miglia, the Italian 1597 km open-road endurance race, which he won in the record time of 10 hours, 7 minutes, and 48 seconds, finishing almost half an hour ahead of teammate Fangio in second place. His navigator in the Mercedes-Benz 300 SLR #722 (indicating the time of the start) was journalist Denis Jenkinson. As navigator, he supported Moss with navigational notes in the form of a Roller Map, which listed all the details of the long road trip, then an innovative technique. This assistance helped Moss compete against drivers who had a lot of local knowledge of the route. Jenkinson later wrote extensively about the experience.

In 1957 Moss won on the longest circuit to ever hold a Grand Prix, the daunting 25 kilometre Pescara Circuit, again demonstrating his skills at high speed, long distance driving. He beat Fangio, who started on pole, by a little over 3 minutes over the course of a gruelling 3 hour race.

Moss believed the manner in which the battle was fought was as important as the outcome. This sporting attitude cost him the 1958 Formula 1 World Championship. When rival Mike Hawthorn was threatened with a penalty in the Boavista Urban Circuit in Porto, Portugal, Moss defended Hawthorn's actions. Hawthorn was accused of reversing in the track after spinning his car.[MOSS pointed out HAWTHORN was on an escape road when he was push started by track officials and therefore was not on the race track itself]  Hawthorn went on to beat Moss by one point, even though he had only won one race that year to Moss's four, making Hawthorn Britain's first World Champion.

 
Moss at the Nürburgring in 1961.Moss was as gifted at the wheel of a sports car as he was in a Grand Prix car. For three consecutive years (1958–1960) he won the grueling 1000 km race at Germany's Nürburgring, the first two years in an Aston Martin (where he won almost single-handedly) and the third in the memorable "birdcage" Maserati.

For the 1961 F1 season, which was run under 1.5-litre rules, Enzo Ferrari rolled out his state-of-the-art Ferrari 156, also known as Sharknose. Moss was stuck with an underpowered Coventry-Climax-powered Lotus, but managed to win the 1961 Monaco Grand Prix by 3.6 seconds, and later also the partially wet 1961 German Grand Prix. Some observers have noted that, while taking nothing away from Moss' superlative performances in these races, there were other factors at play. At Monaco, the tight circuit negated the horsepower advantage of the powerful but heavy and ill-handling Ferraris; and at the Nürburgring, Moss and manager Ken Gregory made a risky but inspired decision to fit super-soft rain tires on the Lotus after a pre-race shower had soaked the track. Had the skies cleared and the track dried, the decision would have been disastrous for Moss. But when rain returned, Moss was able to drive away from the Ferraris of Phil Hill and Wolfgang von Trips (while nursing rapidly deteriorating tires) to take the win.

In 1962, Moss was badly injured in a crash at Goodwood while driving a Lotus in the Glover Trophy. The accident put him in a coma for six months and partially paralyzed the left side of his body.[6] He recovered but decided to retire from racing after a private test session in a Lotus 19 the next year. During this session, he lapped a few tenths slower than before, and did not feel he had the command of the car to which he was accustomed. Many racing and medical observers have speculated that Moss simply tried to return too soon—that another six months of recovery and training would have allowed him to regain most of the physical acuity that distinguished him. He made a brief comeback in the British Touring Car Championship in 1980 with Audi alongside Martin Brundle, the BBC's Formula One commentator, and in recent years has continued to race in historic cars, racing his OSCA FS372 during the 2009 season.

During his career, Moss drove a private Jaguar, and raced for Maserati, Vanwall, Cooper, and Lotus, as well as Mercedes-Benz. He preferred to race British cars stating "Better to lose honorably in a British car than win in a foreign one".[6] The British cars were often uncompetitive and this was considered the reason he never won the drivers' championship. At Vanwall, he was instrumental in breaking the German/Italian stranglehold on F1 racing (as was Jack Brabham at Cooper). Moss remained the most successful English driver in terms of wins until 1991 when Nigel Mansell overtook him, after competing in many more races."

"In recent years, Moss has been an outspoken critic of Michael Schumacher, but in October 2006 Moss ranked Schumacher joint fourth (with Tazio Nuvolari) in the pantheon of all-time great drivers, behind Juan Manuel Fangio, Ayrton Senna and Jim Clark.[7]"

"I certainly had an appreciation of the danger which to me was part of the pleasure of racing. To me now racing is - the dangers are taken away: if it's difficult, they put in a chicane. So really now the danger is minimal - which is good, because people aren't hurt. But for me the fact that I had danger on my shoulder made it much more exciting. It's rather like if you flirt with a girl, it's more exciting than paying for a prostitute, because while you know you're gonna get it, the other one you don't. And I think with driving a motor car, the danger is a very necessary ingredient. Like if you're cooking, you need salt. You can cook without salt, but it doesn't have the flavour. It's the same with motor racing without danger. For me."
"In a Democracy, civil dissent and even disobedience is a responsibility and a duty. Indeed, the extent dissent is tolerated is in itself a test of a Democracy."

Bruce Elton Foulds - 2010.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2010, 08:14:54 AM »
I don't think MS could beat Clark, Stewart, Rindt or some others in equal cars. He can't beat Rosberg! And Hey Dare, how can you admire Clark and denigrate his hero, Moss?

Lonny
Lonny

Offline raindancer

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2010, 09:23:55 AM »
Sir Mos's observations and Schuey's performance have vindicated what I have been saying all along.
1. Schuey never raced against an equally talented driver and rigged his contracts so that the team could not hire a comprable drive. That way he had the entire focused around him.
2. He never really beat anyone in comparable machinery. The only time he had some competition was against Mika Hakinen won both his world titles with Schuey in a Ferrari.
3. He built a team around himself and was extremely selfish and manipulative in all his dealings.
4. Whenever he couldnt win he tried to cheat.
5. He couldnt beat Alonso for two years.
6. Nico is now beating him regularly proving that he is an good driver but not what he was made out to be.
Now we all know with incontrovertible proof that Schuey is ordinary driver and they were many who could and would have beaten him in similar machinery.

Hakkinen, Hill, Villaneuve, Alesi, Frentzen all were as good if not better.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline Jericoke

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2010, 02:47:01 PM »
Sir Mos's observations and Schuey's performance have vindicated what I have been saying all along.
1. Schuey never raced against an equally talented driver and rigged his contracts so that the team could not hire a comprable drive. That way he had the entire focused around him.

The F310B was no where near as good as the FW19, and yet Shumacher lead Villeneuve going into the final race.

The MP4-13 was light years ahead of F300, and again Schumacher was only defeated by Hakkinen in the last race of 1998

In 1999, when Schumacher missed half the season, Irvine came within 2 points of the WDC, so he obviously had the skills to win.  (I'll concede he contract held Irvine back.. but Eddie didn't have to sign it.)
[/quote]
2. He never really beat anyone in comparable machinery. The only time he had some competition was against Mika Hakinen won both his world titles with Schuey in a Ferrari.

Given that Coulthard outperformed Barichello in 2000, I'd submit that the MP4/15 nd F1-2000 were likely equal machines, again giving MS the edge.

3. He built a team around himself and was extremely selfish and manipulative in all his dealings.

You don't build a team around Johnny Herbert (no offense!)

Ferrari would be crazy to not build a team around Schumacher.  It happens in every single sport, to have a star player, and then make sure everyone else is there to make sure the star shines.

As for being selfish, we're not talking about class, just on track results.

4. Whenever he couldnt win he tried to cheat.

He's not alone in this area, but again, we're not talking about class, just on track results.

5. He couldnt beat Alonso for two years.

Barichello declined more in the sister Ferrari than Schumacher did.  The car wasn't as good, Ferrari was beat fair and square by a team built around Alonso.

6. Nico is now beating him regularly proving that he is an good driver but not what he was made out to be.

Are we talking about the Michael Schumacher racing now, or the guy who won 7 championships?  Of course he's not as good now.  I think people were too optimistic about his chances, and there are plenty of excuses available (mostly that F1 has changed dramatically since MS left)

The MS driving in 2010 blows the doors off Moss, Stewart, or any other 'legend' who can still get into a car.


Now we all know with incontrovertible proof that Schuey is ordinary driver and they were many who could and would have beaten him in similar machinery.

Hakkinen, Hill, Villaneuve, Alesi, Frentzen all were as good if not better.

Being a champion isn't about being the best driver for one day, week, or month, it takes a team being on top for a whole season.

Doing that once is hard enough, try doing it seven times.  It doesn't matter if MS was never the single most skilled driver in F1, he was the champion

Offline Scott

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2010, 03:05:21 PM »
Glad you went point by point Jeri, you did a much better job than I would have.

I'd like to add for #3 that it describes Alonzo perfectly, but he doesn't have the ability or intelligence to have a team built around him.

...and I don't have a clue how Hill, Alesi and Frentzen can be considered better than Schumacher.  Villeneuve (Gilles) probably would have been, but Jacques didn't have the whole package either.  Schumacher himself said on more than one occassion that Hakkinen was the only current driver that he 'feared' on track.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Williamsfan

  • Guest
Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2010, 03:16:21 PM »
I agree with everything you wrote there Jeri, and your addition Scott.  Schumacher, despite me not being his biggest fan, did everything he could to win and what is wrong with that?  That is the aim of a driver in F1 and yes, Alonso would do it as well if he could and he has cheated along with the best of them in a bid to enhance his own reputation! 

Offline judy

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2010, 04:56:50 PM »
The old approach of building a team around the star driver is no longer relevant in recent years. These are outdated views that is no longer relevant today in F1. A team will not win the contructors championship if only one driver dominate and the other playing supporting role. You need 2 equally competitive drivers to win the constructors championship and this level of competitiveness (between teammates) makes F1 much more exciting in recent years. If Flavio or Jean Todt still remain as team boss of F1 team now, the team can only expect to win the WDC but not the WCC.

Would Schumi be able to win the title seven times if the development of the car was made to suit both drivers in the Ferrari team. Under such condition, would Schumi be able to beat his teammate in the first place.

Would Schumi be able to win the WDC seven times if in-season testing was ban before 2005.

The current F1 condition (development of car shifting away from focussing on only one driver) and the current rules (ban of in-season testing) clearly revealed that Schumi is not so special. These are some positive development that makes F1 become so unpredictable and exciting in recent years.



Offline Jericoke

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2010, 05:25:51 PM »
The old approach of building a team around the star driver is no longer relevant in recent years. These are outdated views that is no longer relevant today in F1. A team will not win the contructors championship if only one driver dominate and the other playing supporting role. You need 2 equally competitive drivers to win the constructors championship and this level of competitiveness (between teammates) makes F1 much more exciting in recent years. If Flavio or Jean Todt still remain as team boss of F1 team now, the team can only expect to win the WDC but not the WCC.

Would Schumi be able to win the title seven times if the development of the car was made to suit both drivers in the Ferrari team. Under such condition, would Schumi be able to beat his teammate in the first place.

Would Schumi be able to win the WDC seven times if in-season testing was ban before 2005.

The current F1 condition (development of car shifting away from focussing on only one driver) and the current rules (ban of in-season testing) clearly revealed that Schumi is not so special. These are some positive development that makes F1 become so unpredictable and exciting in recent years.


Best has to mean within the rules they compete in.  So what if Schumacher doesn't suit the modern rules?  In many ways, the modern rules were written to stop Schumacher from being dominant.  (Smaller point gaps to prevent Schumacher wrapping up the WDC before Montreal, testing ban so Ferrari can't spend their way to an insurmountable lead thanks to Michael's testing feedback). Any time the rules change to contain a specific athlete, that's literally the stuff of legend.

The best American football team would be at a loss playing in the Premier League, just as a premiere league football team would be creamed in the NFL.  So are the New Orleans Saints better at football than Man U?

Offline Dare

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2010, 06:30:37 PM »
I'll admit my remarks on Moss were a bit
much but most posts about MS are because
the posters dislike him.If he was leading the
WDC people would find a reason why he is,
probably Brawn is favoring his old friend Michael
and pulling a Ruebens on Nico.

Personally when MS was driving I wasn't one of his
biggest fans but to call him anything but great gets
to me.When Vettel came on he was called a young
Schumacher!why because he was medicare,I don't
think so.

"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline judy

Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2010, 08:09:28 AM »
Quote
Best has to mean within the rules they compete in.  So what if Schumacher doesn't suit the modern rules?  In many ways, the modern rules were written to stop Schumacher from being dominant.  (Smaller point gaps to prevent Schumacher wrapping up the WDC before Montreal, testing ban so Ferrari can't spend their way to an insurmountable lead thanks to Michael's testing feedback). Any time the rules change to contain a specific athlete, that's literally the stuff of legend.

The best American football team would be at a loss playing in the Premier League, just as a premiere league football team would be creamed in the NFL.  So are the New Orleans Saints better at football than Man U?

I know Schumi dominated F1 and won the title 7 rimes within the rules during the era when he was competing, which happened to favour Ferrari and Schumi. It is obvious that he won those titles through lots of hard work that he put in through testing and providing feedback to develop the car to perfection. All the development work in Ferrari was focussed on his driving style. The rules also favour Ferrari due to no limitation on testing. Ferrari could test as much as they want and they tested much more km than any other teams who worked on much lower budget. This clearly indicate Schumi won those titles due to the condition and rules which happened to favour him, not because he was much more talented than other drivers during his era.

However I think a driver can only become a legend if he is able to excel consistently under the condition and rules that does not favour any particular team or driver.

Williamsfan

  • Guest
Re: Scumacher branded over-rated by F1 legend.
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2010, 08:20:42 AM »
He didn't win all his titles with Ferrari though, which in itself is an achievement.  He won 2 with Benetton, moved to a struggling Ferrari team, built them up with his hard work and the team he helped build, then dominated F1.  Ferrari were more than happy to build their team around a double world champion so you cannot blame him for exploiting the situation open to him.  For that single-mindedness you have to say he is one of the greats.  He exploited everything he could and got everything out of what was given to him.  I didn't appreciate him until he said he was retiring, but he is and especially was one of the greatest.  Just because his team was built around him should not negate from all that he achieved.  He still had to finish every race and win to get where he did.

 


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