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Author Topic: heros and zeros at Singapore  (Read 5204 times)

Offline John S

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2010, 06:22:34 PM »
Quote
I assume the FIA will amend the rules to clarify what to do when your car is on fire.

There is already a rule on what a driver should do after his car was on fire.....

His laundry!  ;)

 :DD :DD :DD   Good one Cos.  :good:

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2010, 10:29:15 PM »
When I went to SCCA marshalls school, it was explained to me that when a driver attempting to pass (Webber) is already along side, it is the responsibilty of the driver on the outside to give enough room to avoid contact. Even Hamilton admitted he could not see Webber, but should have left more room. According to the SCCA this would have been Hamilton's fault.  :DntKnw:

Lonny
Lonny

Offline John S

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2010, 09:29:26 AM »
When I went to SCCA marshalls school, it was explained to me that when a driver attempting to pass (Webber) is already along side, it is the responsibilty of the driver on the outside to give enough room to avoid contact. Even Hamilton admitted he could not see Webber, but should have left more room. According to the SCCA this would have been Hamilton's fault.  :DntKnw:

Lonny

The trouble is Hammy had passed Webber, all of his wheels were in front of Mark before the actual turn, so I don't think alongside is a true description. Webber kept his boot in a fraction too long in my opinion, just like Lewis at the last race when he tangled with Massa. Now if the previous shunt was Lewis' fault it seems harsh to claim that this time he is also to blame.



Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Scott

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2010, 11:10:30 AM »
I've looked at it a few times John, and I just don't see that Hamilton was clear of Webber at any time.  In my opinion it was Hamilton that didn't give Webber anywhere to go but into his back wheel.

(sorry for the music) -
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline John S

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2010, 12:49:02 PM »
I have to disagree on this one Scott, if you look at the vid between 8 and 10 secs Hammy clearly has got the run and position on Webber. You can see also from the front views at 23/24 secs that Mark is given acres of room and Lewis clearly has the normal racing line into the corner but Webber stays on the gas and uses Hamilton's McLaren as an extra brake. Note all the cars following taking the Lewis line into the corner, hell even Glock who has got to watch out for the faster cars approaching moves over to the right, Mark didn't have a hope in hell of keeping that place without the shunt.

The onboard from Mark's car is obscured but if you look on the new video (below) at 31 thru 34 secs you can clearly see Lewis' front wheel well ahead of the Red Bull, and I think if we could see through the RBR airbox we would find the McLaren rear wheels ahead as well. Mark makes a concious decision to continue to run hard up the inside knowing the corner is fast coming up and he is on completely the wrong approach line. You can call Mark's move brave or even lucky, but for me it's still a wrong move and there is no way that you can accuse Lewis of not giving room.       

This is a sharper copy of the same footage.





« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 02:01:46 PM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline cosworth151

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2010, 12:55:18 PM »
I wish there was a replay with Mark's telemetry on it. I'd like to see just where he got on the brakes. It looks to me that he dropped behind Hamilton only after he braked.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline John S

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2010, 02:20:33 PM »
I wish there was a replay with Mark's telemetry on it. I'd like to see just where he got on the brakes. It looks to me that he dropped behind Hamilton only after he braked.

Yeah I'd like to see the telemetry too, it should show Mark braked far to late for his position off the racing line with a car on his outside taking the normal line.

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Online Jericoke

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2010, 02:58:28 PM »
I do think that the marshalls got it right.

It's a racing incident that could have been avoided by either driver.

We want the drivers to be out there fighting, and forcing them to overthink a split second decision in the heat of a championship deciding pass just isn't going to make a better sport.  This isn't like Schumacher ramming other cars, but more a game of chicken, taking a risk, and forcing the other guy to take a risk.

If Hamilton doesn't win the championship, I'm going to say that that this Webber/Hamilton collision was the turning point of 2010.

Offline stealthhaggis

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2010, 04:04:54 PM »
Agree that it was a racing indecent and to prove that point Kubica and Sutil managed to show these 2 how it was done, same manoeuvre, same space, different outcome. Not the first time Webber has done this, won't be the last, but as even he admitted himself, his was the same kind of move as Hamilton's at Monza, he just got lucky. Hamilton was not to blame for this one for me, as has been said, Webber was given as much room as Sutil yet he kept his foot down and almost cost both himself and Lewis the points. He is a lucky man. Lewis was wrong in Monza, Webber was wrong in Singapore, difference is the McLaren broke both times whereas the Ferrari and Red Bull survived.

Offline Scott

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2010, 05:06:14 PM »
I have to disagree on this one Scott, if you look at the vid between 8 and 10 secs Hammy clearly has got the run and position on Webber. You can see also from the front views at 23/24 secs that Mark is given acres of room and Lewis clearly has the normal racing line into the corner but Webber stays on the gas and uses Hamilton's McLaren as an extra brake. Note all the cars following taking the Lewis line into the corner, hell even Glock who has got to watch out for the faster cars approaching moves over to the right, Mark didn't have a hope in hell of keeping that place without the shunt.

The onboard from Mark's car is obscured but if you look on the new video (below) at 31 thru 34 secs you can clearly see Lewis' front wheel well ahead of the Red Bull, and I think if we could see through the RBR airbox we would find the McLaren rear wheels ahead as well. Mark makes a concious decision to continue to run hard up the inside knowing the corner is fast coming up and he is on completely the wrong approach line. You can call Mark's move brave or even lucky, but for me it's still a wrong move and there is no way that you can accuse Lewis of not giving room.       

You're right, it is a much sharper image.  But it hasn't proven anything to me.  I don't see in any frame that the Mclaren has "clearly" passed Webber with all four wheels...assumptions about what an airbox view might have shown are purely what you and I think, unless someone has one.  In my opinion both cars are going the same speed as they approach the corner (meaning they are both braking), so I doubt your remark about Mark using Lewis as a brake.  Mark couldn't have been on the proper line, because there is only one, and Lewis was there...it doesn't mean he should have dropped in behind Lewis and gifted him the corner - Webber doesn't even do that for his own teammate as we all know. 

As it has been said, there was more than one demonstration of how two cars could get through this corner side by side during the race.

I'll concede that it was a racing incident instead of heaping all the blame on Lewis.  Webber could have lifted earlier and donated the corner to Hamilton instead of chancing a collision.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one my friend... :good: :good:
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2010, 04:31:30 AM »
Here is the point that I see. If Lewis says " hey I bet Mark is trying to come back on me" and moves over a foot, just in case, both cars are fine. He said in his interview that he didn't see Mark, so why not be careful? I don't think Monza compares because you can't get through the chicane side by side, at Singapore there is room to be side by side if you're careful.

Lonny

Lonny

Offline monty

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Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2010, 04:05:06 PM »
Sorry to come into the debate so late but I have been away on business and only saw a recording of the race yesterday.
All I would say is this:
if you were Mark Webber you would clearly see that Hamilton is in front of you (by at least two thirds of a car length). You would know that Hamilton probably can't see you and that he has got to take the corner. Unless the red mist has got the better of you, you would brake early let him have the position and take the points.
The problem is, Mark Webber always lets the red mist get the better of him. So he punted Hamilton off. He was really lucky to get away with it. It ruined an excellent race, reduced the excitement building in the championship and was basically stupid.
Webber doesn't care because he did get away with it; but more actions like this and his reputation could fall to a very low point.

Offline Cam

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2010, 05:35:10 AM »
As they enter the corner the cars are almost alongside.

Webber was in total control, if he wasnt, he would have ploughed straight ahead into Hamiltons sidepod.

Webber however had to slow a lot more than Hamilton, so by the time they are starting to exit the corner Hamilton is pulling away.

The collision occurs almost at the very end of the corner, Webber in no way drove into Hamilton, Hamilton clipped Webbers front wheel with his rear right at the corner exit when they were both pointing in the right direction.  He had plenty of room, he was already pulling away, he could have given it six more inches, there would have been no incident and Hamilton would have been ahead.

Racing incident yes, but Hamilton mistake for sure.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2010, 05:41:25 AM by Cam »
I am a lover of what is, not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality - Byron Katie

Offline Scott

Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2010, 08:05:43 AM »
I also saw it exactly that way Cam.  There were two other examples of drivers going through the same corner side by side without colliding.  Webber couldn't get any further over and basically rode the curb - Hamilton simply closed the door, but got his own foot caught in it instead of Webber's.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline monty

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Re: heros and zeros at Singapore
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2010, 01:18:19 PM »
Commenting as an ex single seater driver it was definitely Webbers 'fault' in that he could have easily avoided the accident (but would have lost time doing so).
If there was nothing to lose, nobody would blame him for such an aggressive holding of his position but he could have ruined his own Championship challenge.
As it was he got away with it but ruined Hamilton's championship.
However, I was not suggesting that he should have been penalised because it was a racing incident and not a calculated 'take-out'.

 


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