collapse

* Welcome

Welcome to GPWizard F1 Forum!

GPWizard is the friendliest F1 forum you'll find anywhere. You have a host of new like-minded friends waiting to welcome you.

So what are you waiting for? Becoming a member is easy and free! Take a couple seconds out of your day and register now. We guarantee, you wont be sorry you did.

Click Here to become a full Member for Free

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

* Newsletter

GPWizard F1 Forum Newsletter Email address:
Weekly
Fortnightly
Monthly

* Grid Game Deadlines

Qualifying

Race

* Shoutbox

Refresh History
  • Wizzo: Chat room now available. See you in there
    July 05, 2020, 02:05:12 PM
  • cosworth151: Hey Wizzo. I can see that you & dd are in the chat room but I can't get in!
    July 05, 2020, 02:04:26 PM
  • Wizzo: Hi Andy, ill look at this tomorrow.  Thanks
    May 19, 2020, 10:08:09 PM
  • Andy B: Hi Wiz, I have tried to make a donation using my UK bank account but PayPal will not accept the card as I live in NZ and have a UK card? This is not your problem but is there a way I can just pay directly with a Visa card?
    May 18, 2020, 10:41:51 PM
  • Wizzo: GPW will be down from approximately 13:30 tomorrow until the migration to the new server is complete. Once the site is "live" on the new server it could take another 24-48 hours to become accessible to all users.
    May 14, 2020, 03:18:44 PM
  • Wizzo: I've made some changes to GPW. Try it now
    April 29, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
  • lkjohnson1950: Hey Wiz, Quarantine Diaries doesn't display right for me. The bottom is cut off of the page and I can't see any post after Alia's.
    April 28, 2020, 08:13:44 PM
  • Dare: Hope your doing ok Braden...just now saw your comment. Don't be a stanger
    April 20, 2020, 04:04:18 AM
  • BraydenSoh: Hi everyone! How's life? Hope everybody still doing well!
    April 13, 2020, 03:48:17 PM
  • Wizzo: Session problem now solved. Thanks
    February 05, 2020, 09:43:41 AM
  • John S: Hey! Anyone else notice the huge number of guests on the site today - Wow!!  :yahoo:
    December 03, 2019, 08:38:00 PM
  • Wizzo: Please note: Japanese qualifying times have been updated.
    October 11, 2019, 02:05:42 PM
  • Scott: I'll be in chat for a change...hope some others will make it too.
    September 07, 2019, 08:58:16 PM
  • cosworth151: This Sunday is Mothers Day here in the States. I'll be helping with the free breakfast we do at our Amvets Post every M's Day, so I'll be popping in and out of the Chat Room
    May 10, 2019, 03:57:04 PM
  • Wizzo: Mothers day here in the UK so I will be absent in the chat room today. Have fun!
    March 31, 2019, 10:47:48 AM
  • Jericoke: For newcomers to GPWizard, make sure you check out the live chat during the race!  It's the best way to turn a dull race into a great time, and the cherry on top of a great race!  (I won't be able to attend Aussie though)
    March 15, 2019, 07:48:58 PM
  • Wizzo: The 2019 Grid Game is now open. Please check out the new rules before entering.
    February 17, 2019, 04:56:33 PM
  • John S: Glad the site is back online, we don't know how much we like it til it's gone. Thanks Wizzo.
    February 02, 2019, 09:19:33 PM
  • Calman: Glad to see you back online Wizzo.  Did the issue point to a corrupted MySQL Data Table?
    February 02, 2019, 08:53:13 PM
  • Wizzo: I apologise for the downtime. Normal service has been resumed.
    February 02, 2019, 07:53:12 PM

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 48
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Top Posters

cosworth151 cosworth151
15378 Posts
Scott Scott
13924 Posts
Dare Dare
12404 Posts
John S John S
10230 Posts
Ian Ian
9686 Posts

* IntentsGP Advert

pre-erected f1 camping & glamping with intentsGP

Author Topic: Sitting out a session  (Read 2988 times)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2011, 10:45:08 PM »
If it's due to rain in the race, the wet/intermediates are even more precious than the soft tyres; there's just as few of each compound as there are of soft tyres and there's no safe alternative if they're not usable.

Most other forms of racing don't need a "fairness" doctrine because they don't have such convoluted systems of qualifying in the first place. Which in turn happens because they don't put "entertainment" so far above "sport".
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2011, 03:15:03 PM »
If it's due to rain in the race, the wet/intermediates are even more precious than the soft tyres; there's just as few of each compound as there are of soft tyres and there's no safe alternative if they're not usable.

Most other forms of racing don't need a "fairness" doctrine because they don't have such convoluted systems of qualifying in the first place. Which in turn happens because they don't put "entertainment" so far above "sport".

The supersofts have one good lap, so using them in any Q session makes them less special.

I've never heard the same said of the intermediates/wets.  I know they get used up over time, so lap count is relevant, but there's nothing special about the 'first lap'.

I suppose the main issue is to balance the triumverate of 'sport', 'entertainment' and 'cost'.  There's so many hands in the pot, it's hard to say which way Formula One is leaning at any given time. 

Offline Canada Darrell™

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2011, 09:29:16 PM »
Man, this is wayyyy to complicated...Q1, Q2, Q3.....

Time for a page from Nascar. Lottery balls to determine the Q order at each race or reverse order from previous race (lottery balls for race 1 only in that case) where the first place finisher gets the final qualifying run. One set of tires THAT YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO START ON!, fuel load topped right to the brim and all the aero in race trim.

1 warmup lap and 2 hot laps to set your time. Send out the next car as soon as the previous runner has finished the 2nd hot lap (2nd lap would be optional).

Easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy

Either that or send 'em all out for 60 minutes like the good old days.
Kimi's back! Future double WDC.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2011, 06:01:37 AM »
I think the current system works pretty well. By not running in Q3 and understanding how the primes would work in the race, Di Resta was able to get his best result of the season. It is doubtful he could have achieved that result if he had used a set of options to move 1 or 2 spots up the order. A strategic decision that got the desired result, and added an interesting aspect to the race. I would say that was a good thing.
Lonny

Offline John S

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2011, 10:28:57 AM »
I think the current system works pretty well. By not running in Q3 and understanding how the primes would work in the race, Di Resta was able to get his best result of the season. It is doubtful he could have achieved that result if he had used a set of options to move 1 or 2 spots up the order. A strategic decision that got the desired result, and added an interesting aspect to the race. I would say that was a good thing.

Like you Lonny I have no problem with the current set up and it does indeed give a different angle to the race. Sadly however the modern media world has led viewers to expect action for the sake of it, overlooking the extra interest to be gained in the actual race from teams like FIF1 playing the tactical card.
As I said earlier the commentators should do very much more to explain why teams like FIF1 choose not to run in Q3, especially Brundle and Coulthard who are supposed to be au fait with all things F1 .  >:(







« Last Edit: September 29, 2011, 10:30:52 AM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2011, 03:15:11 PM »
Man, this is wayyyy to complicated...Q1, Q2, Q3.....

Time for a page from Nascar. Lottery balls to determine the Q order at each race or reverse order from previous race (lottery balls for race 1 only in that case) where the first place finisher gets the final qualifying run. One set of tires THAT YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO START ON!, fuel load topped right to the brim and all the aero in race trim.

1 warmup lap and 2 hot laps to set your time. Send out the next car as soon as the previous runner has finished the 2nd hot lap (2nd lap would be optional).

Easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy

Either that or send 'em all out for 60 minutes like the good old days.

I am not a fan of single car qualifying as a spectator.

I appreciate the 'fairness' of it (of course, the last guy gets a rubbered in track... and there's always the possibility of rain.)

F1 tried it, and I don't think that it went over well.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2011, 03:22:54 PM »
I think the current system works pretty well. By not running in Q3 and understanding how the primes would work in the race, Di Resta was able to get his best result of the season. It is doubtful he could have achieved that result if he had used a set of options to move 1 or 2 spots up the order. A strategic decision that got the desired result, and added an interesting aspect to the race. I would say that was a good thing.

Like you Lonny I have no problem with the current set up and it does indeed give a different angle to the race. Sadly however the modern media world has led viewers to expect action for the sake of it, overlooking the extra interest to be gained in the actual race from teams like FIF1 playing the tactical card.
As I said earlier the commentators should do very much more to explain why teams like FIF1 choose not to run in Q3, especially Brundle and Coulthard who are supposed to be au fait with all things F1 .  >:(


I suppose it's part of the greater threat to F1 Bernie pricing it out of reach.  For promoters to make their money back, they need to sell tickets.  If you can pack the stands for TWO days, that's a lot more money than one day.  If Q isn't worth watching, no one is gonig to pay to see it.  I appreciate why cars would sit out Q from a strategic level, but I have to say that any rules that favour a race car NOT racing seems backwards.

It's like a dive in soccer, or a quarterback throwing the ball away, or the intentional walk in baseball.  It's all there, and it makes sense from a competitive point of view, and it's no fun at all.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2011, 06:04:25 AM »
There are never as many people watching qualifying as the race. It is therefore more important that the race be exciting than for qualifying to be exciting. Di Resta might have been able to move up to 8th on the grid, but he would not have had the tools to get the result he had in the race. In qualifying at Indy, you occasionally find a driver who has qualified and has the opportunity to re-qualify. They can choose to stand on their time, but that risks getting bumped. When Di Resta sat out Q3, he gambled that an extra set of options was worth more than 2 grid spots. He could have bombed and not improved. He had no chance at pole, Singapore has peculiarities that played into the decision as well. I like that there are options open to all teams to gain or lose on a gamble.
Lonny

Offline Jericoke

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2011, 03:24:59 PM »
There are never as many people watching qualifying as the race. It is therefore more important that the race be exciting than for qualifying to be exciting. Di Resta might have been able to move up to 8th on the grid, but he would not have had the tools to get the result he had in the race. In qualifying at Indy, you occasionally find a driver who has qualified and has the opportunity to re-qualify. They can choose to stand on their time, but that risks getting bumped. When Di Resta sat out Q3, he gambled that an extra set of options was worth more than 2 grid spots. He could have bombed and not improved. He had no chance at pole, Singapore has peculiarities that played into the decision as well. I like that there are options open to all teams to gain or lose on a gamble.

Indy is a whole other ball of wax.  I'm sure that Bernie would love to turn each race into a month long extravaganza.  Of course, even Indy isn't a month long extravaganza any more.   >:(

I suppose where you fall on the issue is what you expect from qualifying. 

a)  Spectacle for (paying) fans
b)  Strategic placement of cars on the grid

It still bothers me that there is a reward for not qualifying, but I suppose at this point, Q is mostly for the fanatics who genuinely appreciate the strategy in which case it may not be 'broken' at all.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 12:32:20 AM »
The trouble is that I expect spectacle for paying fans... ...and saving the tyres provides more spectacle for more of them in the more expensive part of the weekend because the racing is better. What's wrong is that the regulations force an either/or choice of this type in the first place, not that teams are deciding one way or the other.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline markfarrell9572

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2011, 05:46:40 PM »
In this week's Autosport Gary Anderson says that as well as the 107% rule in Q1 there should be a 105% and 103% in Q2 and Q3.  With grid penalties for those failing to make it.

Offline John S

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2011, 09:34:49 PM »
In this week's Autosport Gary Anderson says that as well as the 107% rule in Q1 there should be a 105% and 103% in Q2 and Q3.  With grid penalties for those failing to make it.

That's just plain daft in my opinion.  :crazy:
Let's see you make it into Q2 but your can't get below 105% of the lead time because you go off whilst trying so you have to go to the back of the grid.  :confused: .....Or you get into Q3 and you pick up a puncture and have to stop out on track without setting a time so you then have to go to the back of the Q2 qualifiers.  ::) 
Whoever dreamed up this load of old nonsense must be a retired E.U. bureaucrat, it's got more machinations than the the treaty of Maastricht.  :D

 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2011, 11:46:17 PM »
In this week's Autosport Gary Anderson says that as well as the 107% rule in Q1 there should be a 105% and 103% in Q2 and Q3.  With grid penalties for those failing to make it.

Nice theory... ...but at the moment that would mean any new team making Q2 would be obliged to stay in the garage because they'd never make the Q2 time whatever they did and any team slower than Mercedes would be obliged to do the same in Q3 for the same reason. So that means at least 2 non-runners every single Q3 and, if more than one person slips up in Q1, one in Q2 as well.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2011, 04:19:05 AM »
In "Ye Olden Days" every practice was qualifying. Every lap was timed, any good one could be your grid time. If you put a real flyer in early you could rest on your laurels. Simple, easy, you could put in a Banker. Then they started messing around with it to "improve the show". What we have now is a decent compromise. The fast guys duel it out for pole ( there is a rumor they are changing the name to Vettel Position) the others balance a couple of grid positions against an extra set of options. Interesting choices, opportunities for different strategies, works for me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Lonny

Offline markfarrell9572

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2011, 06:53:57 PM »
From Autosport.com, Paul Hembrey agrees:

Pirelli motorsport boss Paul Hembery believes the fans are being robbed of a show in qualifying with the current Formula 1 regulations.

With the softer tyres dropping off dramatically around Suzuka, several teams decided to limit their running in qualifying on Saturday in order to save sets that could be vital for the race.

Only six drivers posted a time in the final qualifying segment, while many others did just one run during the session.

Hembery believes something needs to be done to stop teams from not running during qualifying.

"I think it's up to us to work with the teams to come up with a solution," said Hembery. "We are robbing the fans of a show. They paid good money to come here today.

"I'm not criticising the teams because I know why they've done it, because they are using the rules to obtain the best result, so it's not a case of that. But I think we have to look at the wider picture and all of us work together to find a solution.

"It's something we discussed with a few of the teams over the last few days and I hope that we can set up something in Korea and start working on some solutions. We are open to any suggestions from the teams. I think we all recognise that something needs to be done."

He also reckons there are plenty of possible solutions to the problem, and it's up to the them to find one that suits all the teams.

"I think we need to get more tyres, find another solution, get qualifying tyres, force teams to use the Q2 tyres in Q3.... There's a multitude of ideas that we can discuss.

"They all have positives and negatives, of course. There's never the perfect solution, but I think sitting on a table and being sensible there has to be a way of finding something that suits everyone."

Hembery reckons, however, that any change to the rules is unlikely to happen before next season.

"I think it needs to be done for next year, being realistic. It's a complex area, because it falls in two categories: sporting and technical. It's not particularly clear."

Mercedes team boss Ross Brawn also reckons the situation needs to be looked at for the good of the sport.

"I suspect we have probably got to have a look at it. Having the back four cars in qualifying not running properly to conserve tyres for the race is not really where we want to be in Formula 1.

"Over the winter we will have a look at how we improve the situation to remove the incentive for cars to save tyres in the final part of qualifying.

"I don't think any of us really want it, so that's how it has evolved. We will work hard to find a solution with the FIA and Pirelli over the winter to avoid it happening because I don't generally think it's a good thing. We should all be out there trying to set a time."

When asked how to solve the issue, Brawn said: "I don't know. We don't want to start introducing more sets of tyres and having a situation where you have to start the race on the tyres you qualify on is not a bad situation, but perhaps that's something we need to look at.

"The simple way to resolve it is more sets of tyres, but there might be a more efficient way of solving the problem."

 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
Menu Editor Pro 1.0 | Copyright 2013, Matthew Kerle