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Author Topic: Sitting out a session  (Read 3012 times)

Offline markfarrell9572

Sitting out a session
« on: September 25, 2011, 06:32:35 PM »
Formula 1 is an expensive sport to follow, to go to a race is hugely expensive, many fans throughout the world have to pay to watch on TV, as will be the case in Britain and Ireland next year too.  Considering that we the fans shell out hard earned money to follow our support is it too much to ask that if the car has no problems every team runs every car in every available session.  I know its not the first time its happened, but yesterday I was completely unimpressed by Force India not running during Q3.  The fans who paid to be at the track, the people who pay TV subscriptions pay to see 10 cars battling for position in Q3, not eight cars.  Maybe as a deterrent to this, and a way of giving fans value for money, any driver that doesn't run in each session he doesn't have a problem should lose one set of Primes and one set of Options.  That might put a halt to the practice.



Offline Dare

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2011, 06:36:51 PM »
I didn't like it either Mark.I worked yesterday and when I looked
at the live timing results I thought there had been some accidents
or breakdowns.Mercedes only ran 1 lap in Q3
"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline Scott

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2011, 07:27:15 PM »
Rip Off - no easier way to say it.  It's not just the team's fault, it's also the FIA and their tire allotment rules. 

Save money?  Why not just cancel Q all together if the only goal is to save money.  Want to put on a show that people and sponsors will pay for, then put on a show. 
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline John S

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2011, 07:31:59 PM »

You can't blame FIF1, it's the stupid rules. When you are in the mid field you have to do whatever it takes to maximise your chance in the constructors title. Of course it's too much to expect a mid field team to compromise their race prospects unless the rules demand it. Quite why the FIA never saw the problem from a scenario like this is what should be looked at, all the blame for too few cars running in Q3 rests with Todt's dummies. 

Clearly the two Force India cars would only have been competing with each other, their fastest times were still about a second behind Merc who were the slowest of the top eight, so no chance to improve their grid slots.

Instead of bleating on about the no show  the BBC commentators would have done better to fully explain why the FIF1 cars, and as it turns out one of the Merc cars, were not running, at the same time telling the rulemakers to get their finger out.

I reckon for Q3 each team should get an extra set of the option tyres, but one set would be taken back at the end of Q3. If a car does not set a Q3 time inside the 107% rule on options, in a dry session, they have to give back two sets of options. I think this will make all the teams have one decent run in Q3, with nearly all going for two - or maybe three at some tracks.  :good:  - Alternatively they could just give anyone who fails to set a Q3 time (inside 107%) a 2 place grid drop.  ;)



 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2011, 07:35:15 PM »
If the FIA insists on having regulations that make teams have to decide between making qualifying exciting and the race exciting, they shouldn't be surprised when teams make compromises. The penalty Mark proposed, while interesting, would merely put teams like Force India back to square one - where there's still no incentive to go out there because they'd have the same number of useful tyres whether in or out and no particular reason to believe they could improve their situation by being out. At that point, the engine and gearbox mileage mean that staying in the pits, penalty or no penalty, would still be the better decision for them giving themselves the best chance in the race (and thus making the race optimally exciting).

A better idea would be to have a system whereby 2 soft is given out in Q1 and 1 more in each of Q2 and Q3 if and only if a time was set on softs in each preceding session. If you set a time in Q3 on softs you would get a set of softs that could be started upon in the race. That way, the more you run (and thus the more exciting the qualifying), the more sets of unused tyres you should have (and thus the more exciting the race). No point in doing anything with the primes because nobody uses more than a set of those in the race anyway unless something really bizarre happens such as a puncture or a bad miscalculation from Pirelli.

Mercedes were initially meaning to run both their drivers for 1 flying lap. Rosberg was first out of the pit and did his, but Schumacher saw he could not catch his team-mate (he might have made an error somewhere). The fact he'd set out onto the track in Q3 put him in front of the Force Indias, so he had nothing to gain from completing his flying lap. He did, however, make an attempt, and it is right that such attempts be encouraged. Intellectually I understand perfectly why Force India acted as it did, but emotionally I still feel there should be a better solution than to force teams to compromise entertainment in one part of the weekend or another.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2011, 12:38:08 AM »
We had this discussion after the last race.

I stand by my suggestion of using your time from your last session as your qualifying time.  That is, a car in Q3 with no time starts at the end of the grid.  A car with a poor time in Q2 might start BEHIND a car knocked out in Q1.  It means that every session COUNTS.  The three rounds were intended to reduce traffic so the top cars could have a 'shoot out', and I think this change still attains that goal, while providing full value to fans.



Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2011, 06:34:47 AM »
FIF1 had nothing to gain from running in Q3. I fail to see how them going out and setting the slowest times would add to the "show". On the other hand saving a set of softs gave them a chance to do something exciting in the race. Given a choice between a predictable effort in qualifying or a wild card in the race, I'll opt for the race. Manipulating the rules to force them likely would not have altered the grid, but does eliminate a strategy choice from the mix.  :DntKnw:
Lonny

Offline John S

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2011, 10:24:16 AM »
Manipulating the rules to force them likely would not have altered the grid, but does eliminate a strategy choice from the mix.  :DntKnw:

Unless, as I suggested earlier in the thread, they supply an extra set of options to all cars in Q3 which puts them back in the same position.

 

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

David

  • Guest
Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2011, 08:17:25 PM »
You should have to set a time in Q3, full stop!

I like the idea of winning another set of options when you make Q3.  :good:

Offline Jericoke

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2011, 09:32:15 PM »
You should have to set a time in Q3, full stop!

I like the idea of winning another set of options when you make Q3.  :good:

I don't know about the extra set of tires.  Keeping the costs of the sport down is a good goal, until the back end teams are stronger.

As a fan, I do like that there is a small penalty for being at the front, and a small advantage to being at the back.  Otherwise, the fastest car wins the race, which is how it should be, but makes for a dull 2 hours of TV when it's a foregone conclusion.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2011, 07:23:05 PM »
We had this discussion after the last race.

I stand by my suggestion of using your time from your last session as your qualifying time.  That is, a car in Q3 with no time starts at the end of the grid.  A car with a poor time in Q2 might start BEHIND a car knocked out in Q1.  It means that every session COUNTS.  The three rounds were intended to reduce traffic so the top cars could have a 'shoot out', and I think this change still attains that goal, while providing full value to fans.

This would mean that if the conditions deteriorated for any reason in a session after Q1, nobody would have an incentive to do any running whatsoever.

It also forces everyone to do a "banker" lap because if anyone crashes during a "one and only" lap, anybody with a time need not bother setting a time - it's worth losing 5-7 places these days to save 1 set of tyre and at least 10 places to save 2. The sessions still don't count for anyone who can't get near the cut-off for each Q session, and thence to anyone who isn't a pole candidate in Q3. Which means it's in nearly everyone's interest to not run in any Q session at all...

It's a method that looks like it should increase the action on-track but would produce the opposite effect.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2011, 07:24:44 PM »
Manipulating the rules to force them likely would not have altered the grid, but does eliminate a strategy choice from the mix.  :DntKnw:

Unless, as I suggested earlier in the thread, they supply an extra set of options to all cars in Q3 which puts them back in the same position.

Every car in Q3 that sets a time on soft tyres. Presumably anyone who doesn't set a time in Q3, or only sets it on a hard or wet tyre, doesn't need to be given a set of tyres to redress the balance.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2011, 07:42:59 PM »
You should have to set a time in Q3, full stop!

I like the idea of winning another set of options when you make Q3.  :good:

I don't know about the extra set of tires.  Keeping the costs of the sport down is a good goal, until the back end teams are stronger.

That can be done. Simply take away one of the soft sets from earlier in the weekend (I'd nominate the Friday afternoon one) and use it as a Q3 reward instead.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Sitting out a session
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2011, 08:15:31 PM »
We had this discussion after the last race.

I stand by my suggestion of using your time from your last session as your qualifying time.  That is, a car in Q3 with no time starts at the end of the grid.  A car with a poor time in Q2 might start BEHIND a car knocked out in Q1.  It means that every session COUNTS.  The three rounds were intended to reduce traffic so the top cars could have a 'shoot out', and I think this change still attains that goal, while providing full value to fans.

This would mean that if the conditions deteriorated for any reason in a session after Q1, nobody would have an incentive to do any running whatsoever.

It also forces everyone to do a "banker" lap because if anyone crashes during a "one and only" lap, anybody with a time need not bother setting a time - it's worth losing 5-7 places these days to save 1 set of tyre and at least 10 places to save 2. The sessions still don't count for anyone who can't get near the cut-off for each Q session, and thence to anyone who isn't a pole candidate in Q3. Which means it's in nearly everyone's interest to not run in any Q session at all...

It's a method that looks like it should increase the action on-track but would produce the opposite effect.

There are always special rules for rain in F1.  Off the top of my head, how about if Q3 is declared a 'wet session', as long as a car sets a time in Q3, then use the best of their Q1 and Q2 times.

However, other racing series get by quite fine without any sort of 'fairness' doctrine.  If it rains in Q3, I'm okay with the top teams getting stuck at the back of the grid.  They'll still need to put in times to make sure they're not starting dead last.  Because of the nature of wet/intermediate tires, they don't need to be 'saved' in the same way option tires do.

 


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