collapse

* Welcome

Welcome to GPWizard F1 Forum!

GPWizard is the friendliest F1 forum you'll find anywhere. You have a host of new like-minded friends waiting to welcome you.

So what are you waiting for? Becoming a member is easy and free! Take a couple seconds out of your day and register now. We guarantee, you wont be sorry you did.

Click Here to become a full Member for Free

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

* Newsletter

GPWizard F1 Forum Newsletter Email address:
Weekly
Fortnightly
Monthly

* Grid Game Deadlines

Qualifying

Race

* Shoutbox

Refresh History
  • Wizzo: :good:
    March 05, 2024, 11:44:46 PM
  • Dare: my chat button is onthe bottom rightWiz
    March 03, 2024, 11:58:24 PM
  • Wizzo: Yes you should see the chat room button at the bottom left of your screen
    March 02, 2024, 11:39:55 PM
  • Open Wheel: Is there a Chat room button or something to access “Race day conversation”
    March 02, 2024, 02:46:02 PM
  • Wizzo: The 2024 Grid Game is here!  :yahoo:
    January 30, 2024, 01:42:23 PM
  • Wizzo: Hey everybody - the shout box is back!  :D
    August 21, 2023, 12:18:19 PM

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 338
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 2
  • Dot Users Online:

* Top Posters

cosworth151 cosworth151
16143 Posts
Scott Scott
14057 Posts
Dare Dare
12983 Posts
John S John S
11253 Posts
Ian Ian
9729 Posts

Author Topic: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012  (Read 5877 times)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2012, 02:44:32 PM »
Quote
statistically he is the greatest F1 driver ever.

F1 percentage wins (excluding Indy 500 1950-60)

Schumacher - 30.1%
Clark - 34.7%
Ascari - 40.6%
Fangio - 47.1%

And Fangio did it all in his 40's.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Ian

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2012, 02:56:58 PM »
I was'nt just talking about wins Cos, apart from his 7 WDC, it's all the records he has broken. If we go back to Fangio's time and the 1*drivers car broke down he grabbed the 2* drivers car.

(sorry about the asterisks, can't find the hash key)
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2012, 03:19:14 PM »
I tend to look at percentages due to points inflation (9 points for a win vs. current 25) and schedule (6 to 8 races per year vs. 18 to 20).

Other JMF records:

% Poles - 55.8%
% Front Row Starts - 92.31
In 7 full seasons, he had 5 WDC's and 2 seconds.
No other driver has won WDC's with 4 different teams.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2012, 03:58:51 PM »
Dear old Ian and Cos, it will be unjust for both Fangio and Schumacher to be compared head o head, they hail from two different era, have whole different circumstances. But one this they share is that their utter dominance in their time. Ok people might raise their eye-brow a little, Schumacher??dominance??Mercedes??where??

But in his Ferrari days, he is the guy to beat, he is the guy every little boy wished to be, he is the guy who set the standard of competitiveness. All his battles starting from Damon Hill to Fernando Alonso, all will admit, regardless of their opinion, he made sure he was the one to beat.

And there are people who believes Ayrton was a dirty driver (Dare does, I know), yet he has the respect and following almost to none. Even after the death about a decade ago, documentaries are being made, and yet he could be make his place in the heart of many F1 fans.

And Fangio is called the Grandmaster, do I need to progress further? And among this a bloke named Jim Clark will always steal the heart with his sublime control..

They are great in their own way, and each of them showed us to limit a F1 car can be pushed..
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Offline Monty

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2012, 05:16:40 PM »
Quote
statistically he is the greatest F1 driver ever.

In the words of the very wise...."Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Everyone here knows my opinions but in short:- he was often beaten in the same machinery by other drivers but he manipulated teams, out negotiated team mates and cheated his way to several WDC's.
In a different era (head to head with Senna, Prost, Mansell when they were in their primes) he would have been an also ran.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2012, 07:03:16 PM »
I have always thought that a driver should be measured by more than how many wins or WDCs he collects. Here, most drivers from about 1980 on fail. Senna would run over his Mother to win a WDC, and Schumacher was worse. MS had a number of lapdog team mates, a private testing facility where he could run 24/7 and a sweetheart deal with Bridgestone. Yes he is talented, but with that set up any number of drivers could have won. Statistics cannot tell the whole story, MS' cars were massively more reliable than Clark's. How many times was Clark leading when his car quit? If you wish to talk dominance, Clark holds the record for the most sweeps: Pole, Fastest Lap, Lead Every Lap and Win. He did it 8 times in 72 races. But again, no one can lead every lap today, they have to change tires. Clark won 4 races on the same set of Dunlops. You may favour who you like, I'll take Clark and his mates Hill, Stewart, McLaren, Surtees Etc. Hard competitors and still sportsmen.
Lonny

Offline Ian

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2012, 07:10:14 PM »
BD, I've never compared a driver from one era to another era, it can't be done or proved,  all I'm saying is that 7 WDC's says it all, whether anyone thinks he's cheated or not is up to the individual. Yes, I'm a Schumacher fan(monty's probably guessed that by now :tease:) but I personally think the best driver of the moment is Alonso.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Scott

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2012, 07:45:11 PM »
Yes, I'm a Schumacher fan(monty's probably guessed that by now :tease:) but I personally think the best driver of the moment is Alonso.

me too.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Ian

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2012, 07:55:55 PM »
Totally agree with your last two sentences Lonny, but it was a different ball game then, they knew that if they forced another driver off there was a good chance of killing them, I was'nt into F1 then but I've watched a lot of docu's on them, the camaraderie between drivers then was great.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Online Jericoke

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2012, 08:21:22 PM »
Quote
statistically he is the greatest F1 driver ever.

In the words of the very wise...."Lies, damned lies, and statistics"

Everyone here knows my opinions but in short:- he was often beaten in the same machinery by other drivers but he manipulated teams, out negotiated team mates and cheated his way to several WDC's.
In a different era (head to head with Senna, Prost, Mansell when they were in their primes) he would have been an also ran.

In the immortal words of Dominic Toretto:
"Ask any racer. Any real racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning's winning."

Why should the best driver be narrowed down to someone with on track talent?  Why not look at ALL aspects of what makes someone great?  Is the best soccer player the one with the best penalty kick?  Or the one who manages to be on the right team, in the right position to score the winning goal?  Repeatedly?  Talent on track is just one part of the Schumacher Legend!

Schumacher defined an era of F1 that lasts today.  Before him, the driver made a difference.  Now, it's a team of hundreds who design, build and service a car.  There was a time where being the best driver mattered, until Schumacher showed that being part of the best team mattered more.  He might not have set this era in motion, but he certainly knew how to be in the right place at the right time.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2012, 09:38:43 PM »
Very True and well said.
Lonny

Offline Monty

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2012, 09:40:21 AM »
Quote
Why should the best driver be narrowed down to someone with on track talent?  Why not look at ALL aspects of what makes someone great?

Sorry, I am really competitive but I would rather lose than get a win by cheating.
Schumacher cheated on many occassions and had no regard for other drivers safety.
That does not make him 'great'.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2012, 01:32:11 PM »
At this point, I would bring up Sir Sterling Moss. He never won a WDC. In 1958, he handed the WDC to Mike Hawthorn in the name of fairness. Would anyone question that he was one of the greatest drivers of all time?
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Ian

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2012, 02:00:14 PM »
Can't imagine any driver doing that now Cos, in fact, if they did they would probably be sectioned, on top of being given the sack.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Online Jericoke

Re: Heroes and Zeros Singapore 2012
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2012, 05:25:46 PM »
Quote
Why should the best driver be narrowed down to someone with on track talent?  Why not look at ALL aspects of what makes someone great?

Sorry, I am really competitive but I would rather lose than get a win by cheating.
Schumacher cheated on many occassions and had no regard for other drivers safety.
That does not make him 'great'.

There are far too many sports where unsportsmanlike conduct is often rewarded.  'Diving' is still epidemic in soccer.  In basketball the rules are practicaly written to foul opponents near the end of a close game.

Schumacher's 'cheats' were certainly part of the game.  I should think if he'd been called out on them in any meaningful way, he'd have stopped, but he wasn't.  He played the game the way they let him play it.

 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
Menu Editor Pro 1.0 | Copyright 2013, Matthew Kerle