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Author Topic: Vettel wins Webber doesn't  (Read 12690 times)

Offline Dare

Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« on: March 24, 2013, 02:54:39 PM »
To me the big story is Red Bull allowing Vettel to
pass Webber.Vettel says it was a  unintential [how do you
unintentially  pass someone? ::)Horner tell Vettel to stop
attacking? >:(  The pattern is set

 http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/8594188/Webber-Seb-Will-Be-Protected-As-Usual


Mark Twain once opined, "it's easier to con someone than to convince them they've been conned."

Offline John S

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Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2013, 03:26:18 PM »
I can understand the row but racing ain't racing if all the leaders hold station from team orders after the last pit stop.  :nono:

Most of us frown on Ferrari's team orders because it skews the results and spectacle, yet now we're expected to sympathise with driver and team trying to impose team orders to fix a result.  :swoon:  I can understand Mark feeling aggrieved but come on it's been dog eat dog in the WDC since it's inception. 

Maybe this just might breakdown the myth of no team orders at Red Bull,  ::) and give us spectators more to cheer about because their drivers will really race each other. Last year we saw McLaren allowing Jens and Lewis to battle with each other, it's what we want to see surely - otherwise how do we know whose the best?

Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Dare

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2013, 03:31:17 PM »
Good argument John except Webber was told to tune his
engine down and to cruise to save tires.Fairer would have
been to keep racing at race speed
Mark Twain once opined, "it's easier to con someone than to convince them they've been conned."

Offline Philbe

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2013, 03:33:28 PM »
The post race confab between Seb and Mark sure looked a little tense.
The little comment from Nico on the radio at the end of the race also seemed to set the tone for future team orders from Ross.

Offline John S

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Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2013, 04:00:16 PM »
Good argument John except Webber was told to tune his
engine down and to cruise to save tires.Fairer would have
been to keep racing at race speed

Sure to let them both race on is the fairer way. My point is if followed team orders would have deprived us of the half a lap of action between the Red Bull cars. I don't like what Seb has done, but when team orders get in the way of a good dice between two sets of top drivers (RBR & Merc), so early in the season, something is very wrong.   

Since all the teams constantly seek to bend, stretch and even break the rules over car design and operation, - oh and nearly all of us think that both healthy and acceptable, it just seems a bit hypocritical to really worry about a driver ignoring advice (not a rule) to secure a win.

Yes I know it was ungentlemanly, poor form and very selfish, but as I have already said if it now leads to proper head to head racing by Mark and Seb then bring it on.  :D

   
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Irisado

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2013, 05:01:05 PM »
The interview with Helmut Marko on BBC said it all.

Vettel's behaviour was extremely poor today.  Yes, it would be better if they were racing for the win, but defying a direct team order is out of order, and displayed another unsavoury side to his character.  Think of the number of times Webber has been told to sit behind Vettel and obeyed the team order.  Vettel's radio message earlier in the race also told you all you need to know about his true thinking ('get him [Webber] out of the way, he's too slow').

He's becoming more and more like Schumacher in my opinion.  Notice how much he was jumping for joy when he won, and then how he feigned being really sorry during his post race interviews.  It won't wash with me, and he has sunk even lower in my eyes as result.

His continued childish naming of his car, and petulant outbursts also continue to underpin just how immature he is.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Dare

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2013, 05:07:08 PM »
Well put Irisado,I wonder what Mark's liable to do next time
the situation is reserved.Canned or not I know what I'd do.

Vettel's moving up my F1 drivers I despise list faster
than a shooting star
Mark Twain once opined, "it's easier to con someone than to convince them they've been conned."

Offline Ian

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2013, 05:11:12 PM »
Fancy paying Vettel a compliment by saying he's becoming more and more like Michael.  :tease:
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Scott

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2013, 05:13:53 PM »
Yes I know it was ungentlemanly, poor form and very selfish, but as I have already said if it now leads to proper head to head racing by Mark and Seb then bring it on.  :D


Only if it is fair.  Mark had turned down his settings, obviously Seb had not.  It wasn't head to head - Webber clearly had a disadvantage.

As it's been said, there have been at least a couple of times that Webber has held position on team orders.  Vettel once again has shown that he has no respect for Webber and perhaps even for team management.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Alonsofan

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2013, 05:26:22 PM »
I think team orders are poor and drivers should be allowed to race....but FAIRLY. Webber was not expecting the move and had his car turned down to "cruise" to the finish.

When the tables are turned we will find out if Webber is a man or a mouse...watch this space. (or what his contract actually says ;) )

Offline markfarrell9572

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2013, 05:58:05 PM »
I'm really no fan of team orders but once they are issued should be followed.  Knowing Mark was following orders it wasn't fair for Seb to take advantage.  He claims he didn't do it deliberately but you can not pass someone by accident.   I've always liked Seb, he's seemed to be a winner and a nice guy too.  Today he went down in mine and many people's estimation.  31 years ago Didier Pironi  did something to Gilles Villeneuve, and today isn't remembered for his wins, but is remembered for playing dirty.  Fairly or unfairly thats the abiding memory most have of Pironi.  Hopefully Seb isn't remembered in time to come as someone who couldn't be trusted.

Williamsfan

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Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2013, 06:08:33 PM »
To me today's race showed a lot that is wrong about F1 at the moment.  Team orders stink, they should really be outlawed again (although I have no idea how to police them).  There are racers and so should be treated as such, none of this rubbish about letting one car win etc.  The spectacle at the end was ruined because Webber and Vettel were under team orders and the Mercs of Hamilton and Rosberg were in the same situation.  Who wants to watch the last laps of a race with that going on? 

Another thing that bothers me is linked to that.  Why should Webber be in a race and have to switch his engine down?  Why does Hamilton need to conserve fuel?  Fill the things up to enable full on racing over the whole season.  I liked Merecedes' attitude toward tyre usage- burn them out to get performance, but their fuel strategy was not good. 

As a racing fan, I want to see the cars flat out and allowed to overtake. 

Offline Scott

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2013, 06:32:40 PM »
To me today's race showed a lot that is wrong about F1 at the moment.  Team orders stink, they should really be outlawed again (although I have no idea how to police them).  Who wants to watch the last laps of a race with that going on? 

Very true WF.  Like you say, the biggest problem is policing them or - more simply - allowing one car per team.  I don't like team orders, or artificial finishes.  On the other hand, the problem today wasn't that there were team orders, it was just that one driver followed them and the other didn't.  I guess Webber's radio will cease to work the rest of the season when the team suggest he stay in position or move over.

Quote
Another thing that bothers me is linked to that.  Why should Webber be in a race and have to switch his engine down?  Why does Hamilton need to conserve fuel?  Fill the things up to enable full on racing over the whole season.  I liked Merecedes' attitude toward tyre usage- burn them out to get performance, but their fuel strategy was not good. 

The problem with RBR was different than Merc.  RBR was concerned about tires and if both drivers toasted their tires with 10 laps left, the Merc's would hunt them down for the 1-2.  I 100% agree with you on fuel though.  They should perhaps move to enforcing minimum fuel levels in cars that are high enough for the cars to finish the race at full speed every lap.  Merc were obviously banking on some SC time (and who wouldn't in Malaysia?). 
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Irisado

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2013, 06:33:48 PM »
It cannot be policed though, and this is why they have to allow it.  Every time they try to police it, it causes teams to come up with elaborate smoke screens to disguise the need for team orders.  I'm sure that some of you will remember Austria 1998 and 'spongy brakes', and 'Fernando is faster than you' from 2010.

At least the current team orders don't insult our intelligence on top of the racing spectacle.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Scott

Re: Vettel wins Webber doesn't
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2013, 07:45:23 PM »
What struck me about the whole thing was that very likely Vettel figured he would ignore Horner because Marko has his back (as Mark eluded to more than once - 'he's got protection').  But then even Marko said post race that Vettel had been a bad boy and that is likely the ONLY reason Vettel is so apologetic - I wonder if Marko has had a bit of a talking to by Dieter and Vettel no longer has him as an ally.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

 


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