Vettel wins Webber doesn't

[Scott]

Except that if the whole point of the team order was to gain maximum points, then they suspend him a race, get only points for Mark (assuming the new guy doesn't get any with no experience) and they lose the WCC or WDC by 15-20 points, would all be a bit counter-productive.  No, if it was me as team principal, I'd suspend him from all meetings for the next couple of races (make him sit on a chair in the hallway  ), yank his travel budget for the rest of the year (or book him in at motels and force him to take a taxi to the track instead of a helicopter) and fine him as much as they can get away with contractually.

[Ian]

Never observed any class in Schumi on the track Lonny.     

[John S]

Hey maybe they'll do what Football(soccer) managers do with naughty boys, put him on the transfer list.    Wonder which team would offer a driver swap?     

[Alonsofan]

Hey maybe they'll do what Football(soccer) managers do with naughty boys, put him on the transfer list.    Wonder which team would offer a driver swap? 

Possibly Marussia or Caterham but he would have to bring in some hefty sponsorship money

[Jericoke]

I can't help but notice that something is missing from our discussion.

WHY was Mark ordered to run a dialed back finish? WHY was Vettel similarly ordered?

My guess, since it hasn't come up, is that RBR knows that there are penalties for changing engines/gearboxes, so why use them harder than you have to?

It wasn't simply about getting maximum points in one particular race, but also making sure that 2 notoriously delicate cars have enough spare parts to finish the season without taking grid penalties.

Justice would be best served if Vettel loses the championship by 8 points because of a blown gear box in the last race...

Assuming this is the issue, why didn't anyone bother telling Vettel that on the radio?  Surely even in the heat of the moment he's capable of losing a race now so he can win the championship later.

If it's not the issue, then I still don't see what Vettel did wrong (as a race fan, I want to see racing)

[Scott]

You might be right Jeri - we can't see the engine diagnostics that the team can over telemetry, but I thought they said the main reason for tuning things down was to prevent the tires from going away because the RBR had bad wear issues with the tires.  But the hold station was because they wanted both cars to finish and perhaps knew that if Mark was forced to defend Vettel, he would make it as difficult as possible, maybe even catastrophically so. 

There were so many possibilities to have things go wrong at the end between those two - and supposedly the agreement was that after the last pit stop if they were 1-2, then they were to remain that way, in that order.

But I still think if Mark was allowed to race Vettel, he would have remained in front.  Might have been more fun to watch if they were both allowed to. 

[Williamsfan]

I like your thinking Jeri, especially the part about him losing by the margin of a penalty caused by a gearbox change 

[Irisado]

An F1 driver is there to win races (unless they've signed a contract for Ferrari saying they'll pull over).  It's that simple.  That's Vettel's job.  There are hundreds of people who support him in that effort, why should he be expected to pull back when he has the opportunity to win?  For his teammate's feelings?

No, because the team told him to.  Whether you like that, and think it's right, is something that I'm happy to debate, but the fact is that the team told him not to pass Webber, and his disobeyed a direct order from the team.  That is wrong in my opinion.

Mark might certainly be sore about the way things went down... but I believe he'd do the same to Seb if he wanted.  I think anyone on the grid would, and rightly so.

He hasn't though Jeri, that's the issue.  He has been told in the past not to overtake Vettel, and has followed the instruction.

Maybe it's the Canadian race fan in me.  Is there any chance Gilles Villeneuve would cruise to victory like Mark was planning on?  Or any of the greats?

You do remember the Pironi/Villeneuve incident at Imola in 1982 don't you ?

[Jericoke]

An F1 driver is there to win races (unless they've signed a contract for Ferrari saying they'll pull over).  It's that simple.  That's Vettel's job.  There are hundreds of people who support him in that effort, why should he be expected to pull back when he has the opportunity to win?  For his teammate's feelings?

No, because the team told him to.  Whether you like that, and think it's right, is something that I'm happy to debate, but the fact is that the team told him not to pass Webber, and his disobeyed a direct order from the team.  That is wrong in my opinion.

I think the debate is more complicated than that.
1)  We all know that 'just following orders' is never a valid excuse for anything... right? 
2)  Why would anyone ask a triple world champion to lose on purpose?
3)  Is the team there to support the driver, or is the driver there to support the team?

Mark might certainly be sore about the way things went down... but I believe he'd do the same to Seb if he wanted.  I think anyone on the grid would, and rightly so.

He hasn't though Jeri, that's the issue.  He has been told in the past not to overtake Vettel, and has followed the instruction.

At the point that Vettel passed Webber, Mark wasn't going race pace any more.  Outside of championship battles, where has a faster teammate ever been asked to hold back?

The only incident I can think of was Indy 2002, and the FIA made it quite clear that was not acceptable.  (At least Schumi had the class to be embarassed about it.)

[Ian]

Happened in Austria 2002 as well with Schumacher and Barrichello, Barrichello waited until the last corner to let him past, even a hardened Schumacher fan like me was disgusted with that. I always thought Schumacher had enough clout in the team to refuse to take the lead.

[Monty]

I am afraid that Vettel really has decided to be the next Michael Schumacher. The problems are, I do not think he is actually the best driver out there (he has simply had the best car) and he hasn't earned any respect from peers or public which means he is rapidly making himself universally unpopular. This could hurt him in the PR stakes in the future and he might find that he loses support from sponsors and his employer.




And why not?  Schumi was probably his hero growing up!  We don't get a lot of F1 gossip in Canada, but as near as I can tell, Michael Schumacher has all the money he'll ever need.  A loving, stable family, dream place to live, celebrity status when he wishes it, and quiet solitude when he needs it.

Who wouldn't want to follow in Schumacher's path?

I haven't let-on but I never liked Schumacher. However, I do acknowledge that he had established himself as a winner in more than one team before his evil excesses really became apparent. In my opinion Vettel has not established himself. He has been in the fortunate position to be in a team capable of building the fastest car and then due to the protection afforded to him from Helmut Marko he has had the car and strategy targeted specifically for him. In Malaysia he ignored team rules, made Horner look a fool and even embarrassed Marko. With actions like this he could really disenfranchise hiself from the team and the main sponsor.

[Alianora La Canta]

No, if it was me as team principal, I'd suspend him from all meetings for the next couple of races (make him sit on a chair in the hallway  ), yank his travel budget for the rest of the year (or book him in at motels and force him to take a taxi to the track instead of a helicopter) and fine him as much as they can get away with contractually.

Frank Williams thought along similar lines in early 1981. Carlos Reutmann overtook Alan Jones against team orders to win a race (I think it was Argentina). Frank refused to pay Carlos any bonus money (or, depending on the account, he only paid him the bonus money for 2nd). Carlos showed much class by never even speaking of the punishment - journalists only found out by talking to Frank and other highly-placed Williams contacts.

[cosworth151]

Martin Whitmarsh brings up another point. Vettel most likely has it in his contract to do what he is told:

"The driver is putting himself presumably in breach of contract and the team is bigger than any driver, isn't it? At any team. With a team having 600-700 people in it, you have really got to remind them"

http://www.racer.com/red-bull-must-lay-down-law-say-rivals/article/286030/?DCMP=EMC-RACER_DAILY&spMailingID=5848733&spUserID=MjMyNjk2NjU2MQS2&spJobID=69624733&spReportId=Njk2MjQ3MzMS1

[lkjohnson1950]

Whether he's a 3 time WDC or a rookie, a hard core competitor or a fill in, the real bottom line is, he's an employee. If I disobeyed a direct order from my supervisor I'd be in serious trouble. If they can't find a way to make Seb see he's lucky to drive for RB, then they have no control and I never met a boss who willingly gave up power.

[Alianora La Canta]

I guess we have now. Sebastian has been disobeying team orders since at least the start of 2010 (mostly minor ones like "don't go for that fastest lap at the end of the race") and Christian doesn't seem to have done anything meaningful about it. Seems like Christian is quite content to give up power in this situation - or he was until last weekend.