F1 Risks Loosing Engine Manufacturers

[cosworth151]

I actually agree with Bernie. 

Bernie Ecclestone says that F1 risks loosing engine manufacturers when the politically correct mini-motors take over next season.

The new mini-motors were put forward by the FIA to bring more manufacturers into F1. No new manufacturers have joined the sport and one of its two most successful builders is leaving. Net gain, -1.

“The trouble is that manufacturers have spent a lot of money on the engines,” Ecclestone said. “What I tried to say to them the other day is that they will have to spend a lot more money if they get it wrong … The danger is that what will happen is what always happens with the manufacturers, which is that if it doesn’t work they will stop.”

http://www.autoweek.com/article/20130401/f1/130409993#ixzz2PPIlemD4

[Alianora La Canta]

I would say the horse has bolted on this one - anyone wanting to make an engine for 2014 is committed to have already started designing it. Of course, the theoretical number of manufacturers has increased, because anyone who has an LMP1 engine for WEC 2014 could use that engine in F1. However, it is unlikely that any Le Mans manufacturer is going to spend the additional money to supply and support F1 engines (noting that F1 goes to 12 more venues and consumes engines between 2 and 4 times as quickly as LMP1 cars do) when they presumably already get their perceived marketing/technical needs met doing the LMP1 program. After all, F1/LMP1 compatibility wasn't on the table when the most recent new entrant, Toyota, started LMP1.

[Jericoke]

I would love to know the FIA decision process.

I understand that fans weren't 'fans' of the world engine, but the manufacturers were.

Now we have a new formula that pleases neither fans nor manufacturers.  How did that happen?  When you've got only two constituents, who are co-dependant, surely making one happy will lead to making the other happy.

[F1fanaticBD]

I am excited to know that F1 will be featuring a new engine, as because I think F1 should be the pinnacle of motorsports in case of quality of everything, from drivers to technology. And it is almost certain in next decades car will have a significant portion energy coming from electricity if not all of it, so turning a blind eye to such progress will cause F1 more harm than good. But my question lies whether the changes that are introduced are in the right direction or not? Are they being way too early, which will hurt the sports. When they suddenly banned traction control back in 1994, we had two drivers death. I am suggesting any fatality when the engine changes will happen in 2014, but there may be fatal injury to the economy of F1, which will be no less worse than a death of a driver. Then again which direction to go, if we don't set sail? But I have a feeling F1 could have done it a bit more gradually, introducing change in the engine little at a time. Also they could have done a lot more changes of regulation regarding the aerodynamics, but they have made very subtle changes for 2014.

I like change, I want F1 to change, but self-destruction is a change, and I want F1 to stay as far possible as it can form that.

[John S]

Oh please pass the violin.    Bernie has been trying to scupper these new engine regs since the world recession took BMW, Honda and Toyota out of F1. He simply finds himself on the outside looking in as The FIA calls the shots on the regs for the series, the control freak in him just can't let go. 

These new engines, or power units as they are now to be called, although costly put the car manufacturers back to a position where race technology has a direct spin off to road vehicles. The European and US authorities are forcing the car manufacturers to make their vehicles much, much more efficient, this is leading to hybrids and energy recovery becoming a big part of the automotive industry. The old V8, V10 and V12 tech is increasingly becoming specialist areas in the motor industry, the mainstream manufacturers are using less and less of these units.

Three committed engine suppliers is more than most world or US motor racing series manage, so in my opinion Bernie is just trying to create column inches in the press in the extended gap between Malaysia and China's races.

   

[Jericoke]

Oh please pass the violin.    Bernie has been trying to scupper these new engine regs since the world recession took BMW, Honda and Toyota out of F1. He simply finds himself on the outside looking in as The FIA calls the shots on the regs for the series, the control freak in him just can't let go. 

These new engines, or power units as they are now to be called, although costly put the car manufacturers back to a position where race technology has a direct spin off to road vehicles. The European and US authorities are forcing the car manufacturers to make their vehicles much, much more efficient, this is leading to hybrids and energy recovery becoming a big part of the automotive industry. The old V8, V10 and V12 tech is increasingly becoming specialist areas in the motor industry, the mainstream manufacturers are using less and less of these units.

Three committed engine suppliers is more than most world or US motor racing series manage, so in my opinion Bernie is just trying to create column inches in the press in the extended gap between Malaysia and China's races.

   

I'm not disputing the need for F1 engine regulations to embrace the future.

I'm just disputing the choices made.  If there were manufacturers champing at the bit to make turbo V6s, then great, but if no one wants to make one, then... it's a silly rule.

As for Bernie, his entire worth is based the value of F1 as an idea.  Of course if he sees something that would devalue the idea of F1 he has to speak up.  I think that he's wrong more often than he's right, but when he's right, he's right in a big way, and when he's wrong, he's wrong in a small way.  (No pun intended)

(I believe that if Bernie was in charge of the engine supply there would be 10 manufacturers lined up to sign, but that's neither here nor there.)

[John S]

I'm just disputing the choices made.  If there were manufacturers champing at the bit to make turbo V6s, then great, but if no one wants to make one, then... it's a silly rule.

As for Bernie, his entire worth is based the value of F1 as an idea.  Of course if he sees something that would devalue the idea of F1 he has to speak up.  I think that he's wrong more often than he's right, but when he's right, he's right in a big way, and when he's wrong, he's wrong in a small way.  (No pun intended)

(I believe that if Bernie was in charge of the engine supply there would be 10 manufacturers lined up to sign, but that's neither here nor there.)

The original choice of the FIA was for 4 cylinder turbo units this was changed to 6 cylinder turbos after the current manufacturers lobbied for 6, the introduction was also delayed by a year as well. I'm sure if they had really wanted the present manufacturers could have got the new engine regs done away with, after all we hear on another thread that Ferrari possesses a veto over any FIA rule that it can't live with.

Bernie only has himself to blame if Mercedes walks away because of cost, he's the one who rigged the special big extra payments in the Concorde in favour of Ferrari, Macca and Red Bull.    Renault is only likely to leave if their teams become really uncompetitive, they have a lot invested in GP2 and GP3 which are under Bernie's control as well.



 

[cosworth151]

Three committed engine suppliers is more than most world or US motor racing series manage

Only Ferrari is committed. Renault is and Mercedes are involved. Merc just barely. NASCAR tried V6's. Interest in the series plummeted. Ditto IndyCar. It's a shame that the FIA can't seem to learn from history. Of course, the FIA's main purpose seems to be to destroy motorsport (the WEC, for example).

People watch F1 to see hi tech, exotic, state of the art equipment, Not a tweeked version of what's in the family minivan. That's what production classes are for. In the opening for their F1 coverage, the BBC referred to the sound of an F1 engine as, "the scream of science." Fans just can't work up the same passion about 6 popper turbos, "the mewing of a colicky kitten." That is why the promoters are against the new set-up.

BTW, NASCAR great Junior Johnson did the best job of defining "involved" and "committed." "In a bacon & eggs breakfast, the hen is involved but the pig is committed."

[Alianora La Canta]

I would love to know the FIA decision process.

I understand that fans weren't 'fans' of the world engine, but the manufacturers were.

Now we have a new formula that pleases neither fans nor manufacturers.  How did that happen?  When you've got only two constituents, who are co-dependant, surely making one happy will lead to making the other happy.

Because, from my understanding of it, the whole "manufacturers want world engine" line came from Max Mosley, who misinterpreted manufacturers' liking for common road engines as wanting the same on the race track.

Also, LMP1 and F1 engines have such different demands on them that no sensible manufacturer would want to use the same engine for both purposes. It would be much like using the same pair of shoes to go ballroom dancing and hiking up a mountain - both require the same level of quality, but are tested in quite different areas.

[Alianora La Canta]

Three committed engine suppliers is more than most world or US motor racing series manage, so in my opinion Bernie is just trying to create column inches in the press in the extended gap between Malaysia and China's races.   

Put simply, Bernie is worried that having two manufacturers supply 4 or one manufacturer supply 5 leaves too much power in the hands of one board (that he cannot directly influence). He's watching the money, and his hoped-for flotation of F1, and seeing that both would be stabler if the power can be spread across more manufacturers than he currently has. In the current situation, I'm not convinced 3 manufacturers is dangerous - yet. If one steals a march on the others, it will be, but with a potential other manufacturer arriving, even that may not be such a problem.

[lkjohnson1950]

I'm kinda tired of hearing the new powerplants referred to as minivan engines. Are any minivans hybrids? The new engines are hybrid powerplants. The V6 in the Dino Ferrari was not a minivan engine. A variation of it won an F1 championship. The V6 turbo Renault ran in F1 was not a minivan engine. Porsche has run flat sixes with and without turbos successfully in many types of racing. the Aston martin DBR1 that won Le Mans was a 6. The Mercedes W196 that won the F1 championship was a 6. All of these existed and competed with success before and after minivans were invented, and the first minivans were powered by inline 4s.

[cosworth151]

The Ford C-Max minivan is available as a hybrid. Ferrari has always felt it necessary to put the Dino name on their V6 car to designate them as a lesser model, much as Packard did with the Clipper name. The V6 156 won its championship during a previous mini-motor dark age, the 1.5 liter era of the early 60's. A flat 6 (Porsche) or a straight 6 (a la Merc W196 and 300SL, AM DBR1 and DB5) is not V6's. The first of what is now considered to be a minivan, the 1984 Chrysler S platform vehicles (Plymouth Voyager, Dodge Caravan & Chrysler Town & Country) were technically available with an I4, it was quickly replaced with the 3.0 liter Mitsi 6G72 V6.

Whether one wants to admit their minivan associations or not, V6's, especially turbo-muffled V6's, do not belong in top level racing cars. Just look at IndyCar for proof.

[lkjohnson1950]

Oh, you mean the faster speeds and closer competition now? Yeah, that is a shame.

[cosworth151]

If that's what you want, try NASCAR. Just as fast, closer competition and you can still hear the cars. Actually, I was referring to smaller crowds & less general interest. 

[lkjohnson1950]

Don't think the quieter turbos are keeping the people away. They had huge crowds in the '80s-90s when they were running turbo Fords, Chevvies, Buicks, Mercedes etc. They lost the crowds when they split the series and then made it a spec series. I don't care what kind of engines they run, I want variety in cars, engines and have the cars be fast enough that they can't run Indy flat.