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Author Topic: Views on the Monaco GP  (Read 8911 times)

Offline Scott

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2013, 09:28:11 PM »
They spin a pinwheel and choose the order that way  :fool: :fool: |-( |-(

For me Rosberg should have lost his lead as he ducked in the pits as soon as the SC sign came out.  So did Hamilton, but for some reason he lost places.  I thought the order at the end of the SC period should have been Webber and Kimi.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2013, 09:29:43 PM by scott »
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 10:00:32 PM »
If you enter the pits, where you come out is where you are. You are not allowed to pass cars to resume your position.  :nono:
Lonny

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2013, 11:40:30 PM »
Under a Safety Car I was under the assumption that positions were locked until the green flag and racing resumed.
Is this not when Hamilton pitted? And if so how did Red Bull move ahead of him if positions were held?
I appear to be a bit confused.

Positions aren't locked at any time, except if there's a red flag (and then it's locked at the last point at which an order can be ascertained). The significance of the Safety Car is that every car gets a speed limit (albeit with limited enforcement) and nobody is allowed to do an on-track overtake. That still leaves scope for strategy-based passing.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Online Dare

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2013, 11:50:59 PM »
They spin a pinwheel and choose the order that way  :fool: :fool: |-( |-(

For me Rosberg should have lost his lead as he ducked in the pits as soon as the SC sign came out.  So did Hamilton, but for some reason he lost places.  I thought the order at the end of the SC period should have been Webber and Kimi.

I'm with you Scotty,in chat Philbe,you,and oui commented
on why Webber wasn't leading.
Mark Twain once opined, "it's easier to con someone than to convince them they've been conned."

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2013, 03:00:38 AM »
I believe the order reverts to the last green flag lap, so if Rosberg crossed the timing loop in the pits before the Red Bulls crossed it on the track, he's the leader.
Lonny

Offline Scott

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2013, 07:25:25 AM »
Ok, then that's a stupid rule.  As often as ot the SC comes out in the middle of various pit stops.  Why should those that haven't pitted get a freebie?
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Monty

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2013, 11:53:14 AM »
Fairly boring race made worse by the awful mess caused by the Safety Car. I guess that use of the safety car at Monaco is difficult to get right but there is no excuse for getting it so wrong. In an ideal world the order should have been maintained - it would have been good to see if Hamilton could have / would have challenged Rossberg. Instead, second position was gifted to Vettel.

Hopefully Ali is now in a better mood because I cannot agree with her views on the Mercedes tyre test. Mercedes would have gained nothing from this. They were not allowed to change any parts, they did not know what tyres they were running and they had to run old engines and gearboxes. This test would not have offered any car set-up or development benefits and therefore would not affect any future races.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2013, 01:30:15 PM »
In fairness to James Allen, I heard several commentators Anglofying the pronunciation of San Devote.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

vintly

  • Guest
Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2013, 01:52:37 PM »
Mercedes would have gained nothing from this. They were not allowed to change any parts, they did not know what tyres they were running and they had to run old engines and gearboxes. This test would not have offered any car set-up or development benefits and therefore would not affect any future races.

But.... Ross Brawn clearly stated in his interview that Pirelli asked them for feedback from the tests. This feedback would play a part, however minor, in Pirellis' continued development programme. It's impossible to rule out that the feedback given to Pirelli by Mercedes was not biased in their favour, and I'd go so far as to say that it would be impossible NOT to be biased, as you've only got your own feedback to feed back! And even if the ONLY effect on future races is psychological, ie: other teams feeling like they've missed out, then it's still affected.

I agree with Brundle - 1) if Mercedes benefit in any way and don't get punished then well done Mercedes, clever clever. And 2) the fact that this test wasn't made public at the time suggests there is something to hide. 

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2013, 02:55:08 PM »
Ok, then that's a stupid rule.  As often as ot the SC comes out in the middle of various pit stops.  Why should those that haven't pitted get a freebie?

Because when they used to have a (slightly) more complex system, officialdom got itself confused. Essentially the rule is written the way it is now to prevent another Brazil 2003 from happening.

Hopefully Ali is now in a better mood because I cannot agree with her views on the Mercedes tyre test. Mercedes would have gained nothing from this. They were not allowed to change any parts, they did not know what tyres they were running and they had to run old engines and gearboxes. This test would not have offered any car set-up or development benefits and therefore would not affect any future races.

The tyres were of the general type Mercedes struggled with (remember Mercedes had similar problems with last year's tyres, so why wouldn't they have them with Canada 2013 or 2014-spec ones). The car had to be similar enough to check the Bahrain and Spain delaminations didn't recur, which by definition meant it had to be close enough to help them solve their tyre issue. The tyres had to be the proposed solution compound, else Pirelli would be none the wiser as to how to remedy their delamination problem. They didn't need the exact details of the tyre to be able to use them for their purposes - knowing they had the fundamental high-wear flaws of the original 2013 tyres, which could be confirmed by either listening to Pirelli's rhetoric in the run-up to the test or by a simple "installation run" - the latter being standard procedure for the beginning of a test.

Having established this, they could have test data effectively equivalent to what they could expect the tyres to do in a race. The test gearboxes and engines have had no more wear than the race equivalents would have after 300 laps due to the limited pre-season testing permitted. Each race weekend, an engine does 150-200 laps, and a race engine has to do 2.5 race weekends (375-500 laps) in order to make the limit. Gearboxes, having to do 4 race weekends (600-800 laps) are even less wear-dependent. So the only state Mercedes could not have simulated was the situation with either fresh engine or fresh gearbox - an increasingly rare event as the season progresses. Indeed, not being allowed to swap parts would have made for quite realistic end-of-race simulations, which are exactly what Mercedes needs to fix its specific problem.

1000 km at Barcelona, by the way, would be 214 laps. That would get it to the end of an expected engine mileage and the middle of an expected gearbox mileage, assuming they've used the engine and gearbox that's already taken a quarter of the pre-season test mileage. Note that teams get 4 engines and as many gearboxes as they like for pre-season testing.

The advantage is obvious, even if the benefit isn't the same as a completely free test would be. Unless you count foreknowledge of compounds as an advantage, and Pirelli's actions are likely to make that a moot point - for 2014, at least. How much advantage for 2013 is not relevant, because it's an advantage the other teams could not get through honest means, and it's also clear that the test was not provided honestly (though it's unclear as to whether Pirelli, the FIA or both caused the dishonesty). Thanks to the cumulative nature of tyre knowledge, even giving a 3-day test to the other teams won't fix this. Only switching to a compound not used by Mercedes would bring the championship back into balance (unless Mercedes is kicked out, and I think it may well be the victim, albeit a lucky one, in all this), and there's no way that will be feasible this season.

Also, they got 1,000 kilometres, and it turns out each test can only be 100 km. (The 1,000 kilometre thing is to ensure multiple tests are doable, with multiple teams, in the same year, should they be appropriate).
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2013, 03:53:59 PM »
Ok, then that's a stupid rule.  As often as ot the SC comes out in the middle of various pit stops.  Why should those that haven't pitted get a freebie?

In any racing series if there is a full course yellow or a safety car in the middle of a pit stop cycle, some teams will benefit. Happens all the time in NASCAR, happened at the Grand Am race at Barber. It's just part of racing.
Lonny

Offline Irisado

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2013, 04:24:35 PM »
The race would have been the most boring one that I have ever seen had it not been for the high accident rate, so I'm thankful for the collisions, crashes, and incidents, otherwise I would have fallen asleep.  For that reason, I don't see Pérez and Grosjean as 'villains' so to speak.

It was a pretty tedious procession for the most part, enlivened solely by accidents, and by some great passes by Sutil and Di Resta.  Force India were really on the ball in the race.

Ferrari were a disappointment, especially after showing so much pace in Thursday's practice session, and Mercedes win has been undermined by this tyre testing row, so that has all left me with a rather bitter taste in my mouth.

It was a tough weekend for the rookies, but it's worth pointing out that Bianchi's eventful race was not his fault.  He can't keep his car out of the wall when a brake disc fails, and nor could he avoid Malonado after the Williams, and a barrier blocked the track right in front of him.

Finally, the safety car wasn't needed for the Pic incident, nor, in my view, was it needed for the Massa incident.  The debris were well off the racing line, and they could have covered that with double waved yellows.  They are too quick to use the safety car at Monaco these days.  The marshals are very good, and know what they are doing.  They don't tend to need the safety car to help them out.

Stopping the race for the Maldonado incident was right though, as the barrier was in a total state of disrepair, and that was a serious safety issue.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2013, 04:44:52 PM by Irisado »
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline cosworth151

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2013, 04:29:58 PM »
Many series close the pits from the time the Safety Car is dispatched until it picks up the leader and gains control of the field. Cars that need to pit for an emergency, like a puncture or fuel, must stop again once the pits are open. This would has avoided the confusion.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2013, 05:38:36 PM »
Ok, then that's a stupid rule.  As often as ot the SC comes out in the middle of various pit stops.  Why should those that haven't pitted get a freebie?

In any racing series if there is a full course yellow or a safety car in the middle of a pit stop cycle, some teams will benefit. Happens all the time in NASCAR, happened at the Grand Am race at Barber. It's just part of racing.

Which is something that Alonso knows very well, along with Piquet Jr and Flavio.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Views on the Monaco GP
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2013, 06:56:19 PM »
Many series close the pits from the time the Safety Car is dispatched until it picks up the leader and gains control of the field. Cars that need to pit for an emergency, like a puncture or fuel, must stop again once the pits are open. This would has avoided the confusion.

F1 tried pit lane closures late last decade and, among other problems, they facilitated the Singapore 2008 incident. Renault knew that by crashing one of their cars, they could stop people pitting for a number of laps and thus give Alonso a better chance of winning. (They were helped more than expected because Barrichello's car broke down just before they would have been in a position to re-open the pit lane following Piquet's crash). The crash shouldn't have happened anyway, but the authorities are unlikely to reintroduce anything which might put F1 in a similar situation again.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

 


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