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Author Topic: Tyres or kerbs??  (Read 5888 times)

Offline Alonsofan

Tyres or kerbs??
« on: June 30, 2013, 11:15:40 PM »
With all the tyre failures in todays race I wondered what your views were. Poor tyres? Sharp kerbs? Pushing pressures to the limits? Or a mix of the above?

I must say the kerbs which Gary Anderson looked at on the BBC looked pretty rough and sharp, but my feeling is the buck stops with Pirelli to create a safe tyre for the racers to race with.



Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2013, 11:40:21 PM »
I have always been in favor of making the curbs high enough that the drivers cannot go over them. Teams will push pressures to the limit, the NHRA actually checks pressures on all cars before each run to be sure they have at least the minimum recommended amount. But ultimately the FIA is responsible. Pirelli asked to make a change in the construction and were denied by the FIA on the grounds that it was not a safety issue. HA!  |-(
Lonny

Offline Willy

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 12:22:37 AM »
I say a combination of both....high sharp curbs and tire sidewalls that did not have enough strength for the extremes the curbs put them through.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 12:14:11 PM »
Anderson makes a good case. Here's a link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23118588
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Dare

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 12:46:15 PM »
Anderson makes a good case. Here's a link:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/23118588

You move out of the country Cos?can't play where I live
Mark Twain once opined, "it's easier to con someone than to convince them they've been conned."

Offline cosworth151

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 01:49:33 PM »
Quote
You move out of the country Cos?

I light of my GG picks, I'm hiding in an undisclosed location.  :'(

I posted that for our Brit brethren, Dare.

I just found it on YouTube:

“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Irisado

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 04:30:14 PM »
It's a bit of both.  On the one hand, it's a poorly designed kerb, but on the other Pirelli's tyres ought to be able to withstand it, based on previous tyre constructions not having had a problem.

As far as I understand the issue is that Pirelli wanted to change the tyres much earlier this season, but didn't want to publicly say that it was for safety reasons.  The FIA said that unless Pirelli gave safety reasons as the official reason, the teams would have to unanimously agree, and Ferrari, Force India, and Lotus refused to agree.  As a result, the tyres could not be changed.  It's collective mismanagement by Pirelli, and the FIA, and they both need to sit down, and sort it out.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Scott

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 05:07:08 PM »
Bit hard to say, isn't it?  They haven't had such bad failures on any other track, but Pirelli supposedly didn't change the construction, so what can you blame but the track?  But on the other hand, if it was those kerbs, why didn't most of the failures happen at the kerbs? 

I dunno, but Pirelli are in some deep trouble, and hey, if I can heap some blame on the FIA as well, then I'm all for it.   :good: :good:
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

vintly

  • Guest
Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 06:50:40 PM »
Tyres.

In my humble...:

FIA and Pirelli both must take the blame. FIA for not encouraging and allowing Pirelli more time to test the tyres, in light of the numerous changes to tyre compound and structure that there has been in recent months / seasons. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that mid-corner speeds on high-speed corners have increased disproportionately to other speed increases in F1 cars over recent years, what with the increased focus and spend on aero during that time. These are variables, kerbs are not, and the FIA should be more diligent.

Pirelli can't be completely excused – their product shouldn't fail. The sudden rash of failures at the British GP is odd though. I know it's a heavy lateral-load circuit, but there's a couple of corners at Barca that are like this too, why weren't there more failures there, especially when they tested with Merc? Surely they woulda been pushing hard, or why bother with the test? I wonder if there's been a bad batch, or a glitch in the production line somewhere...

Offline cosworth151

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 08:08:17 PM »
Perhaps the kerbs didn't cut completely through the sidewall. Maybe it only cut few a few of the plies. That then weakened them enough that the high lateral forces soon ripped the tire apart at that fault.

The entire affair reminds me of the 2005 USGP. It was combination of the new, high grip (and highly abrasive) pavement on the oval combined with the high lateral loads of the high speed banking in Turn 13 that cause the unforeseen tire failures..
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2013, 03:36:02 AM »
Pirelli has said almost from the beginning of the season that the 2013 cars are much more advanced than they planned for. The need to test with a car closer to current spec is fairly obvious. If Pirelli can't get something arranged with the FIA I think they should walk away.
Lonny

Offline John S

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Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2013, 09:02:06 AM »
Pirelli has said almost from the beginning of the season that the 2013 cars are much more advanced than they planned for.

Amazing ain't it, each year the FIA takes away or restricts things on the cars to slow them down and then those darn teams manage to make the cars go even faster.  :D  It was ever thus, it's why F1 has gained the reputation and following it has - long may it continue.  :good:

On the tyre debate all I can add is that some drivers seem more affected than others, is any one really surprised that  Lewis and Massa are among the list of failures? Could it be that a small minority are pushing the limits of track and rubber more than most? Now before you all holler foul I know there is a more fundamental issue with the tyres, but if this turns out to be more about kerbs & loadings than compounds who else really would we expect to have problems?  :DntKnw:

Force India and Lotus both claim no problems at all with the tyres at Silverstone, FIF1 even go as far as suggesting other teams ignore Pirelli advice on pressures and camber, see edited piece from master.motorsport.com below. So maybe this is not just tyre construction v kerbs, but teams and drivers way of using the tyres.  :DntKnw:

Telegraph correspondent Tom Cary said on Monday that Ferrari and Force India have also now acknowledged "that safety came before their own competitive interests".

Nonetheless, Force India owner Vijay Mallya has been quoted as questioning the seriousness of the tyre explosions, while Lotus' Alan Permane told Auto Motor und Sport that Kimi Raikkonen and Romain Grosjean had no problems at all on Sunday.

Force India sporting director Otmar Szafnauer added: "We had no problems.

"Maybe it's because we adhere strictly to Pirelli's guidelines regarding tyre pressures and camber."

Master.motorsport.com, 1st july.

 

« Last Edit: July 02, 2013, 09:45:09 AM by John S »
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Irisado

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 05:44:04 PM »
That may be true, and I have every empathy with Force India if that's the case.

That said, not adhering to Pirell's advice to perfection should not lead to such spectacular failures.  Excessive wear, degradation, or a slow puncture perhaps, but not the kind of explosions we saw during the race at Silverstone.

The FIA has now changed the rules, so that the teams don't have to unanimously approve changes to the tyre regulations.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 11:35:21 PM »
The FIA already had the power to change tyres unilaterally in a safety situation (and only in a safety situation) under Article 12.5.3 of the Technical Regulations. The vote was only ever needed in non-safety situations. It happened last time because Pirelli refused to admit to any safety element in its request to change the tyres. The only reason the FIA changed the rules was so that Pirelli could claim its Silverstone tyres were safe - something that every viewer can confirm is false.
Percussus resurgio
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Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Tyres or kerbs??
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2013, 03:32:09 AM »
Not sure it's a safety issue, if the tires were defective why were all the failures on the left rear? I think something else, something in addition to any problem with the tires themselves was at work, otherwise some other corner would have failed on someone's car.
Lonny

 


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