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Author Topic: Masssa to Lotus?  (Read 2602 times)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #15 on: September 18, 2013, 02:24:34 AM »
Kovalainen would be a good choice, but so would Massa. Personally I think Ferrari destroyed any chance of Massa making a solid come back by ordering him to move over for Alonso. Confidence is a bigger factor in driving than most people realize, and that was a killer. If Alonso is as good as he thinks he is, he should have been able to get by on his own.
Lonny

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2013, 09:09:01 AM »
I agree with you Lonny, as because it hampers a driver's psyche when you are told to tow your mate to propel to higher, when your gear-box is changed for the purpose of starting your mate in a cleaner side and in very rare of occasions when you have beaten him in the qualifying, instead of being cheered, you have to face hostility of the team and almost feel like being condemned. That will definitely be the toughest regimen if your are in a comeback program.

What I believe is that his race pace the real thing the prompted Ferrari to look for alternative, because in terms of race pace, he was no where near Alonso ever, specially after his comeback.
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Offline Scott

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2013, 11:08:38 AM »
A WDC needs to be mentally strong.  The way everyone is describing Massa is making him out to be pretty darned fragile.  Should Ferrari provide him with a bit of therapy to get over his contractual obligations?  It's a little bit like why I wasn't a fan of Rubens.  Rubens would whine and whine about how much he had to do to support Schumacher.  Granted, like Massa, there were a couple of instances, but for the most part he was chasing Schumacher to the flag, and showed only rarely the chance that he might be faster. 

Team orders would mean nothing if the supposed No. 2 driver qualified and stayed at least 2 places in front of the No. 1.  Ferrari would never use an order to advance a competing car, so if Rubens and Massa really think they were held back, all they had to do on track was be that much faster than Alonso and Schumacher. 

Oh that's right.  They didn't, and they aren't. 

Rubens and Massa both never showed me the confidence to be anything BUT a No.2 driver, and yet both whined at the tiniest slight towards their (let's pretend now) equal status, even though both certainly had contracts indicating that they were to follow any and all team orders.  Rubens in particular was, as far as I know, never one to congratulate or thank the team in any way for any of his wins or podiums, yet he was the first one to a microphone if anything went wrong with the car, a pit stop, or anything that he could think of to use as an excuse for not doing better.  His poor attitude continued at Honda/Brawn and Williams of course.  What's really telling is that only once in Rubens Ferrari career, when they had arguably the best car on the track, of all the retirements MS had over the years, only ONCE was Rubens able to turn it into a win for himself.

...that's why I don't like Rubens.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #18 on: September 18, 2013, 02:37:03 PM »
If a No. 1-quality driver is treated like a No. 2, they'll act like one, or explode trying to appear a No. 1. (Remember Massa had spent 1 1/2 years as No. 1 at Ferrari, during which Ferrari won its most recent Constructor's title and he was 400 m off the Driver's title, so he was demonstrably a No. 1-quality driver). The latter have trouble remaining in a position where reaching/returning to the top is even possible, as they have shown a huge weakness. The only driver I can think of in 20 years of watching F1 who's successfully resisted in such a situation is Alonso, and that is only because Flavio Briatore had decided before the McLaren situation began that Alonso was the only possible talisman for Renault. Massa didn't have a team boss elsewhere in the field who thinks he's that team's only possible salvation, so his only choice was to accept No. 2 status.

Driving like a No. 2 rarely permits being immediately behind the No. 1 driver, let alone ahead, because the teams who use that strategy know that No. 1s struggle to accept No. 2s defeating them when they've been told that the No. 1 is superior. This goes double for someone like Fernando, who has a history of irrational, team-damaging explosiveness when a team-mate beats him (even slightly, and even just the once). Ferrari communicated throughout Alonso's reign there that Massa ever being ahead of Alonso was unacceptable. Team orders start long before track action begins, and Ferrari's were crystal-clear.

(Rubens took several wins for Ferrari - nine, to be precise. And Ferrari did use team orders to advance 4 other cars, when they changed Massa's gearbox in Austin 2012 to promote Alonso one position. 2 of those 4 were promoted to the clean side of the grid, which was the benefit Ferrari sought for Alonso. So the idea Ferrari would never use team orders to help a rival is sadly misplaced - no amount of positions ahead of Alonso would reliably have protected Massa).
Percussus resurgio
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Offline Jericoke

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2013, 03:09:41 PM »
Massa could end up at Lotus because the team is going to need someone with experience to help to guide development.  Grosjean is still a relative newcomer, and there are not that many other experienced drivers on the grid who are out of contract at the end of the season.  On that basis, I can see this move happening.

I think that some of you are unduly hard on Massa.  You don't come close to winning the world title without being a good driver.  He is, in my view, a good driver who has lost some of his edge since the 2009 accident, but, on his day he can still deliver results.  He isn't a great driver though, but then very few are.

I've never understood the hate for Barrichello that a number of people on this forum seem to have, incidentally.  I'll just say that I disagree with the anti-Barrichello sentiment, and leave it at that.

Next year will be Grosjean's fourth year in F1.  If he's not up to developing an F1 car by now, Enstone should be looking to replace him, not bringing in another veteran to guide him.

As for Barichello, he stayed in F1 because he was a friendly guy.  However he always seemed to be complaining about his team letting him down.  Around these parts we expect the drivers to be team players (see the hate for Vettel), and Barichello might be a nice guy and a talented driver, but constantly blaming his team is a knock against.  There are plenty of drivers who have had cause to be angry with their team, yet are incredibly diplomatic (in public).  They understand that the team matters, and that sometimes mistakes happen.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2013, 04:00:31 PM »
Massa suffered a horrible injury. He almost lost an eye, he certainly suffered some brain damage. Think of waking up in a hospital missing weeks of your life. maybe struggling to talk or eat or walk. Then you suck it up and do the rehab. Now the really scary part, get back in the car. He did that. Race the car. He did that. Then at Hockenheim he drives a well judged race and is about to complete his comeback when the team says, Thanks awfully, but get out of the way. Massa knows Alonso is #1, but in that situation in particular, that had to be a crushing blow. Alonso showed the same egotism Vettel has, "Get him out of the way". I stopped being an Alonso fan right there. I don't think Massa is a world beater, I think he was an excellent driver. I think Ferrari did him wrong in that specific situation. As for Grosjean, some drivers never learn how to develop a car, he may be one of them.
Lonny

Offline monty

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Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2013, 08:37:51 AM »
I agree that Massa did a fantastic job just to get back in a F1 car and to be honest he has hardly been 'slow'. For whatever reason he no longer has that 'something' that makes someone a winner. We have seen it happen to many drivers through the years and I would rather see him retire than scratch around mid-pack.
For me the jury is still out regarding Grosjean. He is very quick. I think he was trying far too hard when he started; then with points on his licence and the stewards watching his every move I think he stopped trying altogether. He now seems to be finding is real potential so the next few races should be very interesting. As far as I am concerned, if Lotus can find the money to race next year they should keep him (consistency in a team is a good thing).

Offline Scott

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2013, 09:57:21 AM »
It really was a scary accident for Massa, but I was never a fan of his, even dating back to Sauber.  If he doesn't retire from F1 this year, I think you're right, he'll be following Rubens path (maybe he'll even get a 3rd place in the WDC in a year or two if Lotus gets a lucky design?).  Not sure how he would do in Indycar though.

I agree Romain was a bit over aggresive at the beginning, but he seems to have calmed down, and is still fast.  It would be an interesting match-up to have Grossjean vs Massa, but my money would be on Grossjean.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 10:01:41 AM by scott »
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2013, 04:47:51 PM »
There is no doubt Massa lost the edge, the edge that made him a brilliant pole to flag driver. But there were always question marks about whether he could make up through the fields, even when he was competing for the WDC.
But the question remains has he lost it all? If given the freedom, can he give the mid-table teams a chunk of point which will help to keep afloat? Now only time could tell the precise answer, but judging from his drive I think I will put my money on him. Remember people when Ferrari was pushing hard last year, Massa had a significant amount of input to develop the car. He started quite well this year, but after few races God know what got into him, those strings of dismal performances really dented any chance he had of retaining the Ferrari seat. But dismissing him will be a bit too harsh, I would like to see him in another team, to see if whether or not he have the thing that I think he might. And given the circumstance of these days, it does not take much for a team to dump a driver.
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Offline Irisado

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2013, 06:07:10 PM »
Rueben's constant whining made him unpopular with a
few of us.

I rarely heard him whine.  He made a number of legitimate complaints about Schumacher, which were fully endorsed, in my view, by Schumacher's attempts to drive him off the road at Indianapolis in 2005, and into the pit wall at the Hungarian Grand Prix in 2010.

Quote
How about Kovalanen back at Lotus[Renault]he
can help develop the car

They dumped him before because they didn't think he was fast enough, so a return seems unlikely.  Still, if the choice is between him and Massa, I suppose they might go back to Kovalainen.  He is a known quantity within the team after all, and may be a cheaper option.

Lotus appears to be struggling to pay top end wages, so I think that they'll be looking to save money on drivers next year.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline John S

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2013, 07:52:00 PM »


Lotus appears to be struggling to pay top end wages, so I think that they'll be looking to save money on drivers next year.

I don't think it's a question of saving money, they just haven't got any.  :D

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

vintly

  • Guest
Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2013, 09:48:26 AM »
It's appalling that a marque like Lotus can be short of cash. Chapman must be turning in his grave.


Offline John S

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2013, 11:49:55 AM »
It's appalling that a marque like Lotus can be short of cash. Chapman must be turning in his grave.

With all the ducking, diving and dubious financing that is going on behind the scenes but race winning cars on the track, sounds very Colin Chapman to me.  :D 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Masssa to Lotus?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2013, 06:22:50 PM »
If you could see the financial status of Lotus, you will see it is not just loosing, its bleeding, incurring huge amount debts. So I think they thought they might be able to hold Kimi, as because it was unprecedented for Ferrari to hire two roosters, and all the other fast teams are pretty well occupied, so they would be able to retain Kimi because there is no place to go. But unfortunately Ferrari somehow outsmarted them.
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

 


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