Is Vettel a true Great?

[Scott]

It is a remarkable accomplishment to get 4 WDC, and on he trot as well.  But how should we measure the Great's in F1?  I didn't realize 4WDC was the benchmark.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/24691202

For me the jury is still out.  At the moment I have more distinct memories of the not great things he's done than the great.  Winning from the front without the slightest hint of bad luck that he would have to fight back through, in certainly the fastest car on the grid makes it sound just a little less great.  For some his is also why they don't rate Schumacher either...

If he wants to truly impress me, sit out Q for the next few races, start at the back and drive through the field for his places....

Anyhow, now the WDC is wrapped up, it's worth a discussion.

[cosworth151]

Like Schumacher, he is a technically fine driver who seems to be totally devoid of any sense of honor. On the bright side, at least he doesn't outright cheat when things don't go his way. That was always Schumacher's fallback position. I find it hard to use the word "great" for anyone of such poor character.

I'd have to argue with two of the stats listed in the BBC article.

Most points scored in a season: 392 (2011): He was getting 25 points for a win in a 20 race season. Drivers like Fangio & Clark got 9 for a win in seasons with less than half as many points races.

Youngest driver to compete at a grand prix: 19 years, 53 days (Turkish GP, 2006 free practice): Practice is not competition. Youngest to drive at a GP, yes. Youngest to compete, no. He might still have this title for his drive at Indy in 07.

A note about Vettel & Fangio. Vettel got his 4 WDCs by the time he was 26. Fangio scores all 5 of his WDCs after his 40th birthday. At my age, I find that far more impressive.    

[Scott]

A note about Vettel & Fangio. Vettel got his 4 WDCs by the time he was 26. Fangio scores all 5 of his WDCs after his 40th birthday. At my age, I find that far more impressive.   

So true...   

[Monty]

To be a Great Champion is more than just statistics.
Of the many drivers potentially claiming to be Great Champions I can only think of two that have been booed; Schumacher and Vettel.
I make no apologies for saying that I do not like what I have seen of Vettel's dealings with his team mate, other drivers and various circumstances that have arisen in his short career. However, I do not question that he is a very good driver, I just think he has not yet faced any real challenges.
He unquestionably has the best car, the whole team has been built around him and he is favoured by the team with the best equipment and most beneficial strategy. I am also firmly in the conspiracy camp. I honestly believe that Mark Webber has actively been stopped from challenging Vettel (nobody can have that much bad luck when the other driver in supposedly the same car has hardly any problems).
Therefore, in my opinion it is Adrian Newey who really represents the current standing as Great Champion.

[Jericoke]

Obviously comparing drivers from different eras is difficult.

I've only been watching F1 since 1996, so basically the Schumacher and Vettel eras.

Even though I didn't watch his championships at Bennetton, they do sound like epic feats of driving.  The cars back then rewarded a great driver, and punished the merely good.  His Ferarri championships were all earned, but it did feel like Ferrari's pocketbook approach to crushing the competition was as important as Michael's skills. 

Vettel has won in an era where there are multiple winning cars, multiple cometitive teams, and a host of drivers who fill 'could be great' lists.  I find his victories feel more significant than Schumacher's did.

However, I think that the greatest effect that Schumacher had on the sport was to get Germany truly interested in F1.  When Michael joined the sport, how many German drivers were there? How many German teams or even suppliers?  And now look how much the Germans bring to the sport.

How can Vettel top that?

[Ian]

Totally agree on your first sentence Jeri, but I'll go further, you cannot compare drivers from different eras.
As great a driver as Fangio was the cars were completely different, I think the best proof that you CANNOT compare them was when Sir Jackie and Schumacher swapped their WDC cars, Sir Jackie done about 3 laps(I think) and brought Schumi's car back in and said he couldn't drive it, the downforce and g-forces were too much, Drivers now are athletes, they have to be to take the pressures today's cars put on them.

[cosworth151]

I think Sir Jackie's age at the time probably had a lot to do with that.

[Ian]

That was my point Cos, Fangio at 40+ would have been the same as Sir Jackie, the only reason that Schumi was able to handle it at 40+ was his level of fitness.

[Jericoke]

That was my point Cos, Fangio at 40+ would have been the same as Sir Jackie, the only reason that Schumi was able to handle it at 40+ was his level of fitness.

Which opens up a bit of a scary thought...

Given his level of physical fitness and driver training... would a driver like Max Chilton, be able to outdrive Fangio at his best?

(But then we'd have to look at the converse:  how much better would Fangio have been if he had Fernando Alonso's fitness team?)

[lkjohnson1950]

I think if you stuck a modern driver in one of Fangio's cars he say it was undrivable due to lack of grip. When Lewis drove the Mercedes W154 at the 'Ring, he said it scared him to death.

[Jericoke]

I think if you stuck a modern driver in one of Fangio's cars he say it was undrivable due to lack of grip. When Lewis drove the Mercedes W154 at the 'Ring, he said it scared him to death.

Perhaps that's our best definition of the 'best' driver... the person who can consistantly take their machine to the very edge of fear. 

Certainly driving in the pre Stewart era, an F1 driver had to be master of fear in a way that Vettel will never know.

[John S]

Certainly driving in the pre Stewart era, an F1 driver had to be master of fear in a way that Vettel will never know.

Unless you were in a car last year with 'Wrecker Roman' a few places behind you on the grid. 

[Irisado]

No, Vettel is not a great.  He has been exceptionally fortunate to have been driving the best car on the grid since 2010, and, particularly in 2011 and 2013, he has had it so easy that it hasn't been a test of his ability.

There are significant parallels with Schumacher.  I agree that Vettel has not cheated, or massaged the rules, whereas Schumacher has (the 2006 Monaco parking incident being the most blatant incident).  Vettel does, however, share the trait of being excessively arrogant.  He is also a very sore loser, and treats his team mate in much the same way as Schumacher did.

I have a lot more time for drivers who either won titles against very tough opposition (Alonso beating Schumacher in 2006 when the rules were changed to mid season to favour Ferrari; Prost winning the title against the odds in 1986) than I do such easy wins in a dominant car when the team mate represents no threat.

As for all these records being broken.  It's much easier to break them now than it was in years gone by.  All the stats about record wins, points, and poles are, in my opinion, pretty worthless indicators.

[vintly]

You have to be pretty exceptional to be the no. 1 driver in the top car, regardless. You don't get to drive the best unless you ARE the best, or very nearly.

I never thought Schumacher was a true great, and still don't, but that's because I can't stand him. He was certainly exceptional - but 'true great' is as subjective as it gets. I think in time, an interesting difference between Schumacher and Vettel will become apparent - people will warm to Vettel whereas people went off Schumacher.

Remember, at Vettel's age Schumacher had just 1 WDC. Ten WDCs is not out of the question for this young man - maybe he'll be regarded better then.

[Scott]

You have to be pretty exceptional to be the no. 1 driver in the top car, regardless. You don't get to drive the best unless you ARE the best, or very nearly.

Vettel was given the drive before the RBR was considered a top car.  Top drivers weren't even looking seriously at RBR.

I never thought Schumacher was a true great, and still don't, but that's because I can't stand him.

Exactly how some of us think of Vettel 

He was certainly exceptional - but 'true great' is as subjective as it gets. I think in time, an interesting difference between Schumacher and Vettel will become apparent - people will warm to Vettel whereas people went off Schumacher.

I suppose that depends on his behaviour.

Remember, at Vettel's age Schumacher had just 1 WDC. Ten WDCs is not out of the question for this young man - maybe he'll be regarded better then.

Ah, there you go with statistics again...look at it another way.  Vettel won his first WDC in his 3rd year in F1.  Well gee-wizz, so did Schumacher.  Sure, Vettel has 4 on the trot, but Schumacher actually had the guts to leave a successful team and move to a struggling team to help build the team into a winner.  Let's see Vettel jump into a Mclaren or better yet, a Williams and see if he can keep it up. 

Vettel could well be a 10x champion at some point, but unless Mr. Newey stays in F1 for another 6 years (which is questionable, as he has always had more of a passion for yacht design, and he's pretty much accomplished everything a designer could hope to in F1), I suppose it will take him at least as many years to do it as Schumacher.