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Author Topic: Britannia Waives The Rules  (Read 7718 times)

Offline Irisado

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 07:04:05 PM »
:DD  :DD If the EU was dragged any lower it would be in Australia Scott, now there's an idea, get rid of the whole corrupt bunch in one fell swoop as shark food.

Oh dear, it's time for this debate again ;).

The EU is comprised of a parliament (elected), Council of Ministers (ministers of the the governments of all of the member states in the EU, so all elected MPs), the Commission (unelected commissioners who are nominated by the governments of member states who are elected, and who have to be approved by the European Parliament, which is elected let's remember).

Explain to me Ian how that system is any more corrupt than a national government?  It's fully accountable to people that we all elect as citizens of the member states.  You might not like it, but that's the truth.  In other words, it's no better or worse than the UK government, or any other government in the EU for that matter.

So, on that basis, I really would like to know why, in your opinion, it's so corrupt?
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Ian

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2013, 07:13:18 PM »
As much as it hurts I must agree Irisado  ;) . Our own MP's are just as corrupt with their expenses claims. My whole point of hating the EU is that we were never given a referendum on full membership as promised, something even the EU has said was wrong.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Scott

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2013, 07:14:53 PM »
We were given one here, but we said NO  :P

How this thread went from being called "European" to being a member of the EU is beyond me.  The Swiss readily call themselves European, yet have less to do with the EU than even England does.  :DntKnw: |-( |-(
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 07:17:23 PM by scott »
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Ian

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2013, 07:29:03 PM »
That's funny Scott, I thought the important word in the naming of the thread was 'Britannia.'
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Irisado

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2013, 06:56:34 PM »
As much as it hurts I must agree Irisado  ;) . Our own MP's are just as corrupt with their expenses claims. My whole point of hating the EU is that we were never given a referendum on full membership as promised, something even the EU has said was wrong.

Of course, the whole issue of corruption is separate in its own right, and I have more faith in some of our publicly elected officials than you do, but I won't spoil this moment of harmony by going into debating that :D ;).

The referendum question is moot though, and I'll explain why.  First, there was a referendum, in 1973, when the UK voted to join the then EC.  Second, because member states within the EU have so much power over which legislation is passed and which is not (see my post above), you are effectively voting for your European policy at every general election, not to mention the European elections (many people don't treat the latter seriously though, which is one reason why the results are distorted in favour of small protest parties).  Third, because you can't have a referendum when people don't understand what they're voting for.

To elaborate further on the last point.  To actually have a fair referendum on the EU, people need to know how it works and what it does.  The vast majority of people in the UK are clueless about the EU.  Even my students who I teach here at the university are clueless about it when they first arrive.  Very little is taught about the EU in schools, and what it does (i.e. debates, procedure, who voted for what) is not reported in the media.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Ian

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2013, 11:57:49 AM »
Irisado, we voted to join the Common Market, free trade and all that, there was no mention of a European super state and us being ruled by Brussels and not our elected government.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Irisado

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2013, 07:03:43 PM »
Ian, that's just not true I'm afraid.  You're being sucked into believing something which just isn't born out by the facts.

Member states have too much power (see my explanation of the decision making procedure above) for the EU to be considered one state of any description.  If you don't like the policy being made at EU level, there is nobody to blame but national governments and the European Parliament, and national governments have more power than the EP in the decision making process, which just goes to show how much influence they have.

The idea that there is some dictatorship in Brussels telling member states what to do is not borne out by the facts.  The Commission's powers are severely limited by the member states.  It can propose as much legislation as it wants to, but if the member states don't agree with it, there's no chance of the legislation becoming law.

There is no such thing as an EU government, so Brussels cannot rule over anyone.  All the powers which have becoming part of the supranational sphere have done so because the member states agreed for this to happen.  Integration is deepest in policy areas that most people are the least interested in, and it's hardly ever reported in this country as a result.

The only things that tend to get reported are the controversial topics, which are few in number, and often reported inaccurately.  For example, the whole row about the prisoners being given the right to vote.  This was a ruling by the European Court of Human Rights.  This is not an EU institution.  That whole debate had nothing whatsoever to do with any EU ruling.

Another example is immigration.  The influx following the 2004 enlargement was argued by some to be some kind of argument against the EU.  The mismanagement of the immigration policy then was entirely a British national government failure, and nothing to do with the EU collectively.  Other EU countries, such as France and Germany set limits/legislated, we didn't, and the UK was caught out.  It's also, however, to do a disservice to Eastern European nations to frame the immigration debate as some in the media and UKIP do, in the sense that most people come here for work, then go back.  Just ask farmers how reliant they are on workers from Eastern European countries.

Finally, of course, there's this whole false notion that the EU bureaucrats force legislation upon member states.  They don't.  They don't have the power.  To give you an example, Herman Van Rompuy, the President of the European Council, has no power at all.  The creation of this position, which sent UKIP and the Conservatives hopping up and down with indignant rage a decade ago, was a non-event.  All he does is report what happens at the European Council to the European Parliament, and sets the agenda for European Council meetings.  He has no vote, is unable to tell member states what to do, and cannot even put items on the agenda.

So, taking all of that into account, I'm struggling to see where the superstate and Brussels dictate is coming from.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Ian

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2013, 07:30:07 PM »
East Europeans come here to work ? Strange that is, when I walk through
Sittingbourne during the day, all I seem to hear is East European voices, none of them work but they are always seeming to be buying goods.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Irisado

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2013, 06:21:13 PM »
East Europeans come here to work ? Strange that is, when I walk through
Sittingbourne during the day, all I seem to hear is East European voices, none of them work but they are always seeming to be buying goods.

How do you know that they don't work?  Have you asked them?  Have you also asked them which countries they're from?

Besides which, you haven't answered my implicit question about where the Brussels superstate idea is coming from ;)?
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Ian

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2013, 10:12:45 PM »
Irisado, this is a discussion that can never be agreed on by two people with vastly differing opinions, I am anti EU and ECHR and you are the opposite so shall we just leave it there?  :P  :-*
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Scott

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2013, 07:35:38 AM »
I used to work the graveyard shift.  When people would see me lounging around in cafe's without a care in the world, they always thought I was no good, troublemaker, taking everything I could get. 

They were right of course, but I did have a job.   :P
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Irisado

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2013, 04:00:34 PM »
Irisado, this is a discussion that can never be agreed on by two people with vastly differing opinions, I am anti EU and ECHR and you are the opposite so shall we just leave it there?  :P  :-*

We could leave it there, but I'd still be interested to know what they would say if you went up to ask them what it is that they do ;).  You might receive answers which surprise you :).
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Ian

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2013, 04:52:27 PM »
Going by the apparent lack of human rights for white English folk I'd probably get arrested for racism and deported to Botany Bay.  ::)
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline John S

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Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2013, 08:39:38 PM »
and deported to Botany Bay.  ::)

Nah you're ok, they won't take you now without a trade.  :P


Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Ian

Re: Britannia Waives The Rules
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2013, 08:56:10 PM »
John please, I am a bricklayer and a platelayer.
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

 


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