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Author Topic: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?  (Read 4437 times)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2013, 01:57:58 PM »
Remember that, in many cases, each of these new venues added to the schedule means that we loose a far, far better existing facility. We still hear, on an almost annual basis, that Spa will loose out to a Tilkedrome, or a boring street race in Rome will replace Monza. Hochenheim and the Nürburgring are already sharing a date because the European GP moved to an already dead street circuit.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 02:05:56 PM »
Remember that, in many cases, each of these new venues added to the schedule means that we loose a far, far better existing facility. We still hear, on an almost annual basis, that Spa will loose out to a Tilkedrome, or a boring street race in Rome will replace Monza. Hochenheim and the Nürburgring are already sharing a date because the European GP moved to an already dead street circuit.

The 'new' tracks aren't displacing the 'classic' tracks though.

For example COTA didn't replace Indy.  Indy decided that F1 was bad for business.  It's the same with many of the 'classic' tracks:  F1 doesn't make money if you're a track owner.

If F1 didn't go anywhere new, they wouldn't go anywhere at all. 

As always the multibillion dollar sport will go where the money is. If people aren't willing to pay to see races in Spa, but they are in Bahrain, then that's where the racing is.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 02:15:41 PM »
Do you really want to compare attendance at Spa to Bahrain? Bahrain, like many of the new venues, exist solely because a corrupt, totalitarian regime is willing to ship Bernie a boatload of cash. If Idi Amin were still in power, we would probably have a Grand Prix of Uganda. Is that what we want F1 to become? That is certainly the way it's going.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline John S

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 03:16:07 PM »
Bahrain, like many of the new venues, exist solely because a corrupt, totalitarian regime is willing to ship Bernie a boatload of cash.

Would that be the same regime that has close links with the United States, and is home to the US Navy's Fifth Fleet.  :confused:

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2013, 03:18:27 PM »
Do you really want to compare attendance at Spa to Bahrain? Bahrain, like many of the new venues, exist solely because a corrupt, totalitarian regime is willing to ship Bernie a boatload of cash. If Idi Amin were still in power, we would probably have a Grand Prix of Uganda. Is that what we want F1 to become? That is certainly the way it's going.

I'm not talking about attenance.  I'm talking about money.

People in Spa won't pay the same as the people in Bahrain.  I don't know why:  if I'm going to spend a zillion dollars to attend a race I'm going to go somewhere nice, not the middle of the desert (even assuming the track experience is identical... why would anyone go to Bahrain instead of Belgium?) so I have no idea why the economics are so screwed up.

But since F1 operates on cash, they go where the cash is. 

I'll agree that it's a somewhat short sighted approach, and yet before the 'asian expansion', F1 was losing teams very quickly.  That's stopped happening over the last few years (teams are hanging on with their fingernails... but they are hanging on).  That is to say, sticking with the old tracks was bad for business.

If the teams would allow more races, there would be room for more races that make less money.  Since they don't... F1 goes with the money.

I'd like to see F1 get into the track ownership business.  Bernie is wasting a lot of profit by dealing with middlemen he has to bully, rather than employees he can boss around.  (Without rehashing the IRL/CART war... having Indy own the IRL was a great idea.)  There's plenty of quality F1 capable tracks in Europe and North America that can be bought cheap, and bring their own enthusiastic fan base.

Offline John S

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2013, 05:46:19 PM »
.

I'd like to see F1 get into the track ownership business.  Bernie is wasting a lot of profit by dealing with middlemen he has to bully, rather than employees he can boss around.  (Without rehashing the IRL/CART war... having Indy own the IRL was a great idea.)  There's plenty of quality F1 capable tracks in Europe and North America that can be bought cheap, and bring their own enthusiastic fan base.

I think that may be a non starter under EU laws, Jeri, it wouldn't be fair and open competition. Existing track owners who host or want an F1 race - but just can't see the economic model of huge fees to FOM as viable with only gate receipts and catering to set it off against - would be at a disadvantage. The FOM would effectively be subsidising the tracks they own if they didn't pay the same huge fees for the races; paying such fees would most probably result in losses for the track operation. The FIA as series owner is based in France so is subject to European Union laws. 

I believe Bernie already owns, or has controlling interest in, several tracks, most notably Paul Ricard Circuit in France, and therefore is well aware of the pitfalls. He wanted the French GP to alternate with Spa a year ago using Paul Ricard, however this all fell through as no state or local government funding could be obtained for the return of the French GP.



 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2013, 06:12:53 PM »
.

I'd like to see F1 get into the track ownership business.  Bernie is wasting a lot of profit by dealing with middlemen he has to bully, rather than employees he can boss around.  (Without rehashing the IRL/CART war... having Indy own the IRL was a great idea.)  There's plenty of quality F1 capable tracks in Europe and North America that can be bought cheap, and bring their own enthusiastic fan base.

I think that may be a non starter under EU laws, Jeri, it wouldn't be fair and open competition. Existing track owners who host or want an F1 race - but just can't see the economic model of huge fees to FOM as viable with only gate receipts and catering to set it off against - would be at a disadvantage. The FOM would effectively be subsidising the tracks they own if they didn't pay the same huge fees for the races; paying such fees would most probably result in losses for the track operation. The FIA as series owner is based in France so is subject to European Union laws. 

I believe Bernie already owns, or has controlling interest in, several tracks, most notably Paul Ricard Circuit in France, and therefore is well aware of the pitfalls. He wanted the French GP to alternate with Spa a year ago using Paul Ricard, however this all fell through as no state or local government funding could be obtained for the return of the French GP.
 

Ah... so instead of 2 German races, 2 Spanish races and 2 Italian races... we see one of each, and a host of races in Asia and the Americas.

I'm guess the EU competition rules work in favour of Europeans becoming unemployed?  :DntKnw:

Seriously though, I don't think it would be illegal for FOM to own the tracks it races at.  Surely soccer (football) teams own the stadiums they play at.  Why shouldn't FOM own its own tracks?

Offline John S

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2013, 06:27:49 PM »


Seriously though, I don't think it would be illegal for FOM to own the tracks it races at.  Surely soccer (football) teams own the stadiums they play at.  Why shouldn't FOM own its own tracks?

You're trying to compare apples and pears Jeri. It's the football teams owning the stadia not the organising/sanctioning body owning them. There's no problem with F1 teams owning tracks but it's a no no for the organising body to do it. In Britain the Football Association owns a football ground, Wembley stadium, but it is only used as an English national venue not as a normal club ground.

 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2013, 06:59:41 PM »
I don't know about soccer, but I can't think of a single MLB, NHL, NFL or NBA team that owns their venue. They all play in government owned, taxpayer financed stadiums/arenas.
Quote
Would that be the same regime that has close links with the United States, and is home to the US Navy's Fifth Fleet.  :confused:

Yes, and we should have cut them off years ago.

“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2013, 08:05:57 PM »
I don't know about soccer, but I can't think of a single MLB, NHL, NFL or NBA team that owns their venue. They all play in government owned, taxpayer financed stadiums/arenas.
Quote
Would that be the same regime that has close links with the United States, and is home to the US Navy's Fifth Fleet.  :confused:

Yes, and we should have cut them off years ago.

Toronto Maple Leafs
Toronto Raptors
Toronto Blue Jays*
Toronto FC
Montreal Canadiens**
Ottawa Senators***
Vancouver Canucks
New York Rangers
New York Yankees

*The Rogers Centre (ne Skydome) was government built, but is now privately owned by the cable company, who also own the Blue Jays

**Not only was the Montreal Canadiens arena privately owned and built... the government was so stingy, the team had to reimburse for the parking meters closed during construction.

***When the Ottawa Senators built the Palladium, they were billed for the highway infrastructure the government had to build to access the arena... and surrounding neighbourhood

Offline cosworth151

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2013, 08:42:29 PM »
I'm not familiar with the Canadian team. As for the Yankees, Bloomberg was throwing a batch of city cash their way. The New York City Independent Budget Office, a publicly funded agency that provides non-partisan information about financial issues, estimated the Yankees deal cost the city $362 million up front, $787 million over 40 years.

(Source: USA Today, 6 April 2009)

You'll find that the Rangers got much the same deal with MSG.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2013, 03:36:25 AM »
I'm not familiar with the Canadian team. As for the Yankees, Bloomberg was throwing a batch of city cash their way. The New York City Independent Budget Office, a publicly funded agency that provides non-partisan information about financial issues, estimated the Yankees deal cost the city $362 million up front, $787 million over 40 years.

(Source: USA Today, 6 April 2009)

You'll find that the Rangers got much the same deal with MSG.

Well, I cheated a little... MSG owns the Rangers, so if there is public money in MSG, I guess it's complicated.

Canadians don't have much of a palette for public arenas/stadia.  I think after getting hosed on the Olympic Stadium in Montreal, it really soured the whole idea.  The Skydome was publicly built, but now private.  It's considered a white elephant.  Hamilton (near Toronto) built an 'NHL Quality' arena with the hopes of getting a hockey team.  It too is a white elephant.

The Edmonton Oilers are trying to build a new arena.  Their owner asked for the government to kick in half, but the people of Edmonton, told them to stuff it.  They're not paying for a billionaire's piggy bank.

It's crazy that Americans keep falling for this 'pay to stay' strategy.  Where would the Yankees really play if NYC didn't build a stadium?

I imagine Bernie's strategy will eventually unravel.  The people aren't interested in Bahrain or India or Shanghai... so the backers aren't getting the prestige they seek.  They'll get bored, and F1 will have to head back where there are people who want to watch.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2013, 06:13:04 AM »
The last several posts have touched on the reason why we are losing venues like The 'Ring and Spa; local and national governments won't kick in the cash to support the races. In addition there is a fairly strong "Green" movement in Europe that is opposed to racing and tells politicians so regularly. In Bahrain, if the King/Sheikh wants a race, he gets one. This is also a strong reason why Bernie doesn't like to deal with the classic tracks, he feels national governments should pay for the races as a point of pride. The EU governments obviously feel differently, as they have shown on several occasions. In America, between Humpy Wheeler's organization which owns Charlotte and several other tracks, and NASCAR's own ISC which owns Daytona, Talledega and several other tracks, the owners of Kentucky Speedway (or maybe it was Kansas?) threatened to sue NASCAR if they didn't get a Cup race. Which is why NASCAR's classic tracks like Atlanta and Darlington are disappearing from the Cup schedule. As Jeri said it's all about the money.
Lonny

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2013, 02:49:08 PM »
Bernie buying tracks is legal. The FIA buying tracks would be illegal (mixing regulatory and commercial aspects), but it can't afford to do that. The reason we don't see Bernie buying and running tracks is because from current evidence, he's rubbish at it.

In 2000, Bernie bought the rights to Spa through a 3rd party. Said 3rd party went bust in 2002, necessitating an emergency buy-out by an independent organisation. In 2009, Bernie bought the promotion rights to Turkey, forgot to promote it, then wondered why the visiting figures went through the floor...

In 2006, the BRDC considered selling Silverstone to Bernie directly. Wisely, they decided to wait for a competent buyer.

(Edited to add: there is also an issue because, unlike most single-use stadiums, it's a rare track that only has FOM events. The most profitable tracks have racing series from several different organisations present (though all must be FIA-approved) as well as home-grown events and possible non-racing activities like concerts. While it's perfectly possible for a series to race somewhere owned by another series, it probably makes things more difficult).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 02:53:31 PM by Alianora La Canta »
Percussus resurgio
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http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2013, 02:55:37 PM »
Monza's toilet facilities were disgusting in my view, just portaloos, no toilet paper and nowhere to wash your hands. Building sites over here have better facilities. You are right though Monty, the atmosphere is why you go to a race and I certainly wasn't disappointed there.

Wow, that is bad! Even Vallelunga manages better toilets (and showers, would you believe?) and that's barely a Grade Two track...
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

 


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