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Author Topic: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?  (Read 4042 times)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
« Reply #30 on: December 09, 2013, 02:59:59 PM »
  • Publish
  • Bernie buying tracks is legal. The FIA buying tracks would be illegal (mixing regulatory and commercial aspects), but it can't afford to do that. The reason we don't see Bernie buying and running tracks is because from current evidence, he's rubbish at it.

    In 2000, Bernie bought the rights to Spa through a 3rd party. Said 3rd party went bust in 2002, necessitating an emergency buy-out by an independent organisation. In 2009, Bernie bought the promotion rights to Turkey, forgot to promote it, then wondered why the visiting figures went through the floor...

    In 2006, the BRDC considered selling Silverstone to Bernie directly. Wisely, they decided to wait for a competent buyer.

    (Edited to add: there is also an issue because, unlike most single-use stadiums, it's a rare track that only has FOM events. The most profitable tracks have racing series from several different organisations present (though all must be FIA-approved) as well as home-grown events and possible non-racing activities like concerts. While it's perfectly possible for a series to race somewhere owned by another series, it probably makes things more difficult).

    Again we can go back to Indy (the speedway) to see that other series can race successfully at a venue owned by another series.  The USGP and Brickyard 400 (NASCAR Race) were successful events in many respects.  (It is argued that the Brickyard 400 is now more successful than the Indy500.  I wouldn't agree, but don't know the facts either.)

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #31 on: December 09, 2013, 03:07:24 PM »
  • Publish
  • Indy has been around for over one hundred years. Most of the other classic tracks we are discussing have been there for 50 to 75 years. How many of these new circuits will survive 50 years? How about 25 or even 10? Barcelona is gone already. The best of the newbies, Istanbul, is done for. How long before the rest of them go the way of Texas World Speedway, Ontario Motor Speedway and many of the other "new super tracks" from the last burst of track building?
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline lkjohnson1950

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #32 on: December 09, 2013, 03:08:31 PM »
  • Publish
  • The Brickyard 400 is in some trouble. Attendance has been declining steadily since the tire fiasco of a few years back. The 500 is also down, but not by as much.Despite it's problems with the 2 competing series over the last 15 or so years, The 500 is still a special and unique event that fans want to see and experience.
    Lonny

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #33 on: December 09, 2013, 03:13:23 PM »
  • Publish
  • Bernie buying tracks is legal. The FIA buying tracks would be illegal (mixing regulatory and commercial aspects), but it can't afford to do that. The reason we don't see Bernie buying and running tracks is because from current evidence, he's rubbish at it.

    In 2000, Bernie bought the rights to Spa through a 3rd party. Said 3rd party went bust in 2002, necessitating an emergency buy-out by an independent organisation. In 2009, Bernie bought the promotion rights to Turkey, forgot to promote it, then wondered why the visiting figures went through the floor...

    In 2006, the BRDC considered selling Silverstone to Bernie directly. Wisely, they decided to wait for a competent buyer.

    (Edited to add: there is also an issue because, unlike most single-use stadiums, it's a rare track that only has FOM events. The most profitable tracks have racing series from several different organisations present (though all must be FIA-approved) as well as home-grown events and possible non-racing activities like concerts. While it's perfectly possible for a series to race somewhere owned by another series, it probably makes things more difficult).

    Again we can go back to Indy (the speedway) to see that other series can race successfully at a venue owned by another series.  The USGP and Brickyard 400 (NASCAR Race) were successful events in many respects.  (It is argued that the Brickyard 400 is now more successful than the Indy500.  I wouldn't agree, but don't know the facts either.)

    It's definitely possible for the right person. Bernie is not that person, unfortunately, and I'm not sure CVC has anyone who is.
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Offline F1fanaticBD

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #34 on: December 09, 2013, 03:45:49 PM »
  • Publish
  • Barcelona is gone already.

    Cossie I think you meant Valencia, because our dear Scotty has managed a ticket for Barcelona already ;)
    Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

    Offline Irisado

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #35 on: December 09, 2013, 06:29:30 PM »
  • Publish
  • I don't go to Grand Prix, I watch them on the TV, so when I am watching it in the TV, how much of that atmosphere does translate into the viewing? We see the glimpse of large crowd only when the pan-out shots taken by the crew, so how come this be a deciding factor?  :DntKnw: :DntKnw:

    I am trying to understand the logic behind this repulsiveness about the newbies.  :DntKnw: :DntKnw:

    Picking up atmosphere is something that I find very easy to do through the television.  I can feel the passion, history, and challenge of older race tracks.  They are more demanding, and when riding on board with the drivers and seeing how much closer the fans are, how much closer the guardrails and barriers are, it's just much more exhilarating.

    As I said earlier, this does not mean that all new tracks are bad.  It's just that most of them are just far too wide.  Take away the acres of concrete run off and make the track narrower and some of them would improve significantly.
    Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

    Offline lkjohnson1950

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #36 on: December 09, 2013, 08:10:19 PM »
  • Publish
  • A couple of drivers have said the width of the track going into turn 1 at COTA is a problem, because it's difficult to know exactly where to place the car. Too far outside is as bad as too far inside. From personal experience, I know it's difficult to get a feel for the elevation changes at a circuit on TV. When I finally got to Watkins Glen, I was very surprised how steeply uphill the esses are and how steeply downhill the approach to the boot on the GP circuit is. They were much more dramatic than they appear on TV.
    Lonny

    Offline John S

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #37 on: December 09, 2013, 09:08:36 PM »
  • Publish
  • Bernie buying tracks is legal. The FIA buying tracks would be illegal (mixing regulatory and commercial aspects), but it can't afford to do that. The reason we don't see Bernie buying and running tracks is because from current evidence, he's rubbish at it.

    Sure Bernie can buy tracks, but he can't subsidise these tracks with preferential terms in the FOM contract if he wants to run F1 races at these tracks - that's the bit that's against the EU competition rules.

    Seeing how he screws much more than the last penny from the existing hosting tracks there is no way he can in reality stage F1 races at his own tracks without losing money, unless he gets local governments to stump up a real big wad of cash by way of a tourism incentive. 

     
    « Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 09:10:31 PM by John S »
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #38 on: December 09, 2013, 09:23:49 PM »
  • Publish
  • Quote
    Cossie I think you meant Valencia, because our dear Scotty has managed a ticket for Barcelona already ;) 

    Right you are, BD. Sorry about that. Hey, it was Monday morning!  :confused:
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #39 on: December 11, 2013, 02:27:28 AM »
  • Publish
  • Sure Bernie can buy tracks, but he can't subsidise these tracks with preferential terms in the FOM contract if he wants to run F1 races at these tracks - that's the bit that's against the EU competition rules.

    Bernie can't give his own tracks preferential terms... ..but as he already gives every track different terms, and nobody can make head or tail of why they all get different terms, I don't think Bernie would have any trouble hiding favouritism for his owned tracks from the EU. The real problem is that he doesn't know how to make the economics work from the circuit's perspective. (The one track he's run successfully is Paul Ricard - and he only bought that after it lost its F1 race contract).
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Are we being fair to the newer tracks?
    « Reply #40 on: December 11, 2013, 12:33:37 PM »
  • Publish
  • The coverage of the death of Nelson Mandela made me think of this. Back in the days of apartheid, almost all the world boycotted South Africa. One of the very few exceptions was F1. The sport was more than happy to take the minority government's money and race at Kyalami. Is anybody proud of that? When we talk about many of the new venues, we would do well to remember F1's history of dealing with any despot with a fat checkbook. Do we really want to repeat the tremendous mistakes of the past?
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan