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Author Topic: Charlie likes DRS  (Read 3533 times)

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2014, 04:55:17 PM »
Irisado, as long as the aero and braking are as Lonny describes it, then DRS is the only way to avoid a procession, which is the greater evil if you ask me.


I'd rather watch a procession than DRS passes.  A procession might be dull, but at least it's not artificial.  There's nothing worse than artificial overtaking in my opinion.  It takes all the drama out of the sport.

I would like to disagree regarding procession Irisado, because I feel it really makes the racing dull. I could remember the Spanish Grand Prix, Hungarian Grand Prix, for which only the first corner mattered, everything else would be same till the end. At least, DRS has given the drivers to avoid that sort of thing.

But I like Scott's proposal of limited DRS duration rather than specific area, that will surely make close racing much more interesting.  :good:
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Offline Irisado

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2014, 07:00:35 PM »
I do not disagree but without aero, brakes, etc. F1 stops being F1. The cars would be slower than F3 (which still have problems with overtaking!).

The cars would still have aero, but they would be less dependent on it.  That's the critical factor.  The cars were not always this reliant on aerodynamics, yet the sport was still Formula 1, so I don't understand this addiction to aero dependency that designers have got themselves hooked on.

Quote
I am in favour of forcing teams to complete a race on one single set of good tyres (unless they suffer a puncture). This would result in additional benefit coming from car set-up and driver smoothness. Tactics could range for going hell-for-leather at the start and hoping you can make a gap you can hold when your tyres go-off; to taking early laps really easy and then overtaking later when everyone else has killed their tyres. Still a bit artificial but it might create more exciting racing?

This was the rule in 2005, and it worked to a certain extent.  It was certainly better than DRS, and would have the added benefit of saving Pirelli taking lots of flack for having to produce tyres which wear out.  It was abandoned after only one year though, ostensibly because of safety issues, but in reality because it disadvantaged Ferrari, and at that time Ferrari had a secret deal with the FIA allowing them to argue for rules to be removed which they didn't like.

What is important to remember though about 2005 was that there was a tyre war, so the need to last for an entire race distance was made more interesting because of the competition between Bridgestone and Michelin.  The latter winning on performance grounds quite comfortably that year.

I would like to disagree regarding procession Irisado, because I feel it really makes the racing dull. I could remember the Spanish Grand Prix, Hungarian Grand Prix, for which only the first corner mattered, everything else would be same till the end. At least, DRS has given the drivers to avoid that sort of thing.

Yes, I remember those races too, although Hungarian Grand Prix over the years have often been spiced up by tyre wear issues, retirements, and even rain (the 2006 event and Button's first win).  I'm not advocating processional racing, but at least there's nothing artificial about it.  Opening and closing a wing flap to breeze past people is not Formula 1 racing in my book.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2014, 09:05:30 PM »
I can understand the resentment regarding DRS, Irisado, but my point is you have to start something. Yes it does feels artificial, in my opinion it gives the trailing car an unfair advantage, but something had to be done. May not be perfect, but its a step towards something. As you have mentioned many times before, the cars have become so reliable, now what can we do about it? Because of the tireless work of the mechanics, the feat has been achieved, you cannot just dismiss that. may be teams are not pushing to the limit, or it can be due to the advancement of technologies or it could be both. I don't think teams will like to come out of it, so I have a feeling it will be there to stay for quite a while.

I have always liked the idea of Scotty, that all teams to be given exact amount DRS time to be used, which will surely make things very interesting. Just stopping it in the grounds of safety is daft, as last it was legal to use in anywhere during qualifying and free practice session. If it was safe then, it should be safe during the race as well.
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Online cosworth151

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2014, 09:11:53 PM »
I don't think they will ever go back to a single set of tires per race. The problem is that the tire supplier is there, at great expense, to get their name on international TV. With one set of tires per race, they get almost almost zero broadcast time.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Irisado

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2014, 10:40:25 PM »
I can understand the resentment regarding DRS, Irisado, but my point is you have to start something. Yes it does feels artificial, in my opinion it gives the trailing car an unfair advantage, but something had to be done. May not be perfect, but its a step towards something. As you have mentioned many times before, the cars have become so reliable, now what can we do about it? Because of the tireless work of the mechanics, the feat has been achieved, you cannot just dismiss that. may be teams are not pushing to the limit, or it can be due to the advancement of technologies or it could be both. I don't think teams will like to come out of it, so I have a feeling it will be there to stay for quite a while.

Agreed that the cars are too reliable, but the solution to that was not to bring in DRS.  It was to give the teams more money, cap the budgets, and remove the rev limits and gearbox restrictions which have helped to make the cars more reliable.  Yes, there are practical problems with some of these ideas, but it would make for an altogether more enjoyable (in my view) spectacle than artificially induced overtaking.

Also, the re-introduction of turbos may help to bring back some unreliability, particularly in the early races of the season.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline John S

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Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2014, 12:45:14 AM »

Irisado all motor racing is artificial, there ain't a thing natural about it, so how you can claim DRS is artificial is a puzzle.  :confused:

When any team gets the jump on the rest of the field with a new innovation and keeps winning easily, or better still when some cars are deliberately set up to stifle the racing by being defensive and keep positions rather than moving forward in a race, is that artificial? When the powers that be limit weight, height, width, cc, materials, fuel, or tyres is that artificial?
 .....or is it simply doing what's necessary.  :DntKnw: 

Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2014, 06:47:58 AM »
Returning to ground effects would help passing, while retaining the down force drivers love and giving the teams an area for technical development. This was planned for the new rules package, but was eliminated for reasons unknown. Otherwise, the cars are so restricted by the rules, they are bound to be reliable. If you liked the '90s, you should have been around in the '80s. I4 and V6 turbos against V8 and V12 N/A engines. Everyone cranking them to the max for a few extra HP. Ground effects cars, active suspension systems, qualifying engines and tires. Those were the days!!!
Lonny

Offline Scott

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2014, 11:37:01 AM »
Ground effects would also make DRS unnecessary, since the backwash would be negligent.  They could practically get rid of the rear wing if it wasn't for the advertising dollars they need space for.

As for DRS being unnatural, the truth is DRS is simply artificial drafting, and works a lot like they used to do, except that you could still draft in other places on the track as well.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2014, 11:39:45 AM by scott »
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Irisado

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2014, 03:12:35 PM »

Irisado all motor racing is artificial, there ain't a thing natural about it, so how you can claim DRS is artificial is a puzzle.  :confused:

What I mean by artificial John is that it works like a driver aid.  I remember all the fuss about traction control, active suspension, ABS, and all sorts of other gizmos which became increasingly part of Formula 1 in the early 1990s until they were banned.  They didn't do the sport any favours, and I view DRS in the same way.  It's an artificial overtaking aid for the drivers, when they should be able to overtake without the need to open a wing flap.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2014, 05:37:26 AM »
But if you can't, and I mean CAN'T overtake without something like that, what do you do?
Lonny

Online cosworth151

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2014, 12:16:01 PM »
Wouldn't power steering, power brakes, remotely adjustable diffs, computerized anti-stall systems and semi-auto gearboxes with paddle shifters also be driver aids? I've always thought it was silly that a modern F1 cockpit has all of those but still has a manual brake balance adjust lever.

F1 will always have driver aids. The only question is, which ones?
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Irisado

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2014, 01:09:16 PM »
But if you can't, and I mean CAN'T overtake without something like that, what do you do?

Change the cars so that you can.  The FIA and the teams won't do it though.

Wouldn't power steering, power brakes, remotely adjustable diffs, computerized anti-stall systems and semi-auto gearboxes with paddle shifters also be driver aids? I've always thought it was silly that a modern F1 cockpit has all of those but still has a manual brake balance adjust lever.

F1 will always have driver aids. The only question is, which ones?

There used to be a definition of what were classed as driver aids in Formula 1, but I can't remember it.  If anyone with a better memory of the FIA's rulebook can, then that would help here.  In a nutshell though, the type of driver aids that were around in the early 1990s are the things that I refer to as driver aids.  I view DRS as a gadget like traction control, active suspension, or ABS, so for me it's a driver aid.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Ian

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2014, 03:07:16 PM »
I think that's a cue for our residential rule book expert Ali to make an appearance Irisado.  :good:
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2014, 06:42:03 AM »
But if you can't, and I mean CAN'T overtake without something like that, what do you do?

Change the cars so that you can.  The FIA and the teams won't do it though.

That'a exactly right, so there you are. And I don't think active suspension was a driver aid. It should have been developed as it has street car applications, especially as many US roads are crap these days. It was banned as too expensive for the smaller teams to afford.
Lonny

Offline Irisado

Re: Charlie likes DRS
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2014, 03:17:20 PM »
I think that's a cue for our residential rule book expert Ali to make an appearance Irisado.  :good:

That's what I'm hoping for :).

That'a exactly right, so there you are. And I don't think active suspension was a driver aid. It should have been developed as it has street car applications, especially as many US roads are crap these days. It was banned as too expensive for the smaller teams to afford.

It was also banned on safety grounds if I recall correctly, but the whole package of rules which came into force at the end of the 1993 season were not only part of a cost cutting measure, but were also there because of complaints that Formula 1 cars were becoming too easy to drive with all the gizmos bolted on.

It was also one of the few rule changes which worked, because the grid was really shaken up for the first couple of races in 1994.  You had midfield teams right up at the sharp end (look at the performance by Arrows early on as an example).  If only the events of Imola and Monaco 1994 had never transpired....
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

 


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