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Author Topic: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?  (Read 5434 times)

Offline Scott

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2014, 12:10:06 PM »
I love Bernie's take on it...

I find myself on his side.  Except the bit about going into the grandstands and asking how many cylinders the cars have.  I would say it is more likely the Paddock Club ticket holders haven't a clue.  The grandstand fans shelled out a lot of their own money to see the race and are far more likely hard core fans...not like the PC fans, who are there to sip champagne and try to 'be seen'.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/307973/ecclestone-fuel-rules-a-bit-of-a-joke/

« Last Edit: March 19, 2014, 12:46:47 PM by scott »
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline cosworth151

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2014, 12:48:43 PM »
He make a valid point. This isn't supposed to be endurance racing. In fact, the races are notably shorter than they were in the fifties and sixties.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2014, 02:12:19 PM »
I love Bernie's take on it...

I find myself on his side.  Except the bit about going into the grandstands and asking how many cylinders the cars have.  I would say it is more likely the Paddock Club ticket holders haven't a clue.  The grandstand fans shelled out a lot of their own money to see the race and are far more likely hard core fans...not like the PC fans, who are there to sip champagne and try to 'be seen'.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/307973/ecclestone-fuel-rules-a-bit-of-a-joke/

I'm going to have to disagree with Bernie here...  I thought that F1 was supposed to be about innovation.  If they're happy running old engines, why not old cars?  Old tires?  Why not just hand everyone a copy of the 2003 Ferrari and let them go at it?

I do think the new engine regs are half baked, but I don't think the status quo forbidding innovation was the answer.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2014, 05:31:30 PM »
I agree that the fuel rules are redundant, either regulate the flow or the total allowed. There is no need to do both.
Lonny

Offline Scott

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2014, 05:57:59 PM »
I'm going to have to disagree with Bernie here...  I thought that F1 was supposed to be about innovation.  If they're happy running old engines, why not old cars?  Old tires?  Why not just hand everyone a copy of the 2003 Ferrari and let them go at it?

I do think the new engine regs are half baked, but I don't think the status quo forbidding innovation was the answer.

Bernie said 'last year's engine'...not comparing anything to 2003.  They could have put in regulations in forcing the teams to innovate the engine from last year to make it more efficient instead of creating a completely new one.  Wouldn't have cost manufacturers 100's of millions to R&D either (you are a fan of the cost cutting, aren't you Jeri?).  I rarely agree with Bernie, but all his points are good in this case.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Jericoke

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2014, 06:11:43 PM »
I'm going to have to disagree with Bernie here...  I thought that F1 was supposed to be about innovation.  If they're happy running old engines, why not old cars?  Old tires?  Why not just hand everyone a copy of the 2003 Ferrari and let them go at it?

I do think the new engine regs are half baked, but I don't think the status quo forbidding innovation was the answer.

Bernie said 'last year's engine'...not comparing anything to 2003.  They could have put in regulations in forcing the teams to innovate the engine from last year to make it more efficient instead of creating a completely new one.  Wouldn't have cost manufacturers 100's of millions to R&D either (you are a fan of the cost cutting, aren't you Jeri?).  I rarely agree with Bernie, but all his points are good in this case.

I picked 2003 arbitrarily to point out that when you're talking 'high tech', what's the difference between last year or a decade ago?  I could just as easily have picked 1959.  (I originally put 1996, but since that would be a good year for Villeneuve, I changed it to avoid my bias)

I'm not technically pro cost cutting.  I'm just pro 'having a healthy competitive F1, which in the current era requires reigning in the free spenders until their competition can catch up'.  I hate that Ferrari and Toyota can't just let their engineers' imaginations run wild, but appreciate that letting that happen would mean we'd ONLY have Ferrari and Toyota left on the grid.

Finally, if people really watch F1 'for the sound'... how can anyone explain that it's a multi billion dollar industry?  Whether Bernie is right or wrong on the issue... he's coming dangerously close to pointing out that there's not much difference between F1 and my neighbour's kid's Jetta with a rotted muffler.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2014, 06:55:15 PM »
Let's be clear, however they may sound, the current engines are far more high tech than the ones they replaced. The 4 cam 4 valve V8 may not have reached it's end of cycle, but it is very close. Any further development will be at a very poor cost/benefit ratio. I don't like the fuel rules, this is not the Mobil Economy Run. I wish, as I said, that they had just turned them loose to find whatever solution they could. I'm not a fan of cost cutting per se. I recognise the need to keep the less well funded teams on the grid, but I think the FIA is carrying it to an extreme when Lewis is told he must retire to save the engine.

 >:D >:D
Lonny

Offline Scott

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2014, 08:39:12 PM »
Here is Horner's reply to the FIA decision.  I guess it will have to play out at appeal for them to prove that their calculations and equipment are more accurate than the FIA's.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112968
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline cosworth151

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2014, 08:54:27 PM »
Just because it's different doesn't make it innovative. After all, V6 turbos were available in 1978 Buick LeSabres. They ran at Indy decades ago.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline John S

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Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2014, 09:23:36 PM »
Here is Horner's reply to the FIA decision.  I guess it will have to play out at appeal for them to prove that their calculations and equipment are more accurate than the FIA's.

Red Bull can argue accuracy until the cows come home, the real reason for the DQ is that they didn't obey the rules that are set by the governing body. All the other teams stuck to the rules even if this meant compromising their own situations. You can't just disobey rules because you think your solution is better. :nono:

What next Red bull turning up with last year's car on the grounds that they know the new engines don't perform as well as last year's  :D

For me this is a plain and simple, a red card for saying bo**ocks to the ref, so a sending off offence.

For the record the FIA is the rule maker and ultimate owner of the F1 format, they were forced by the European Union to split up the governance from the commercial side of F1. This inevitably leads to rules and restrictions that may appear to be against the commercial interest of some parties in the sport. The FIA can take decisions as they see fit to further competition and keep reasonable equality amongst the participants. It's hard to see how Bernie's FOM could possibly be trusted to apply rules fairly; let alone write any sensibly for the whole grid.  ::)           
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Scott

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2014, 10:01:43 AM »
I don't think they'll have much chance either, but maybe they have a case to just get rid of the meter entirely...as it's been said, controlling fuel levels and flow is a bit redundant.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Monty

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2014, 12:31:14 PM »
RBR were showing a ridiculous level of arroagnce by ignoring the FIA advice. It was the first race and they were in a strong position. Even if turning their fuel rate down had resulted in Riciardo losing a place or two (which I doubt) they should have complied with the rules and argued later. I think there is zero chance of the FIA reversing the decision so RBR have cheated Riciardo of some well earned points.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2014, 02:21:30 PM »
Exactly, totally agree. Perhaps though, RB did it on purpose to create a scenario early in the season where they could challenge the sensor hoping to be rid of it.  :DntKnw: :DntKnw:
Lonny

Offline Jericoke

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2014, 03:21:50 PM »
Here is Horner's reply to the FIA decision.  I guess it will have to play out at appeal for them to prove that their calculations and equipment are more accurate than the FIA's.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112968

The problem is that RBR put so much stock in the FIA's measurements when it came to their flexible front wing.  The FIA merely needs to cite that to show that their measurements are the final word on legality.

Offline Irisado

Re: Red Bull disqualified for exceeding flow rate or disobeying FIA?
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2014, 10:35:09 AM »
The merits of the fuel rule are open to debate, but so far as I can discern, Red Bull broke the rules, and don't have a leg to stand out.  I expect the appeal to go against them.  Very few appeals against the FIA are successful, so history is not on Red Bull's side.
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