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Author Topic: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars  (Read 5381 times)

Online John S

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2014, 11:55:52 AM »


When was the last time there was a genuinely awful car on the grid?  There are none this this year. 

Really? How about the Caterham or Saubers this year? Should these teams really be paid as much from F1 as Marussia or FIF1 who have clearly upped their game on limited budgets this year.

Sorry if it offends but any team, with at least 2 seasons experience under their belts, with a car incapable of reaching the points, even when a lot of top runners drop out, must either have a dog of a car or be a second class team. Bad luck can't be an excuse with the length the seasons are now. 

   
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 07:33:33 PM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2014, 12:31:21 PM »
At the latest race, Silverstone, the slowest Sauber out qualified both of the Williams and both of the Ferraris.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Online John S

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 12:35:37 PM »
At the latest race, Silverstone, the slowest Sauber out qualified both of the Williams and both of the Ferraris.

Ah, but they only flattered to deceive. There are no points for Quali - or even pole.  :P 

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline monty

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2014, 12:45:50 PM »
if you make it impossible for a small team to get involved in F1 and hopefully develop into a successful team then in my opinion the sport will stagnate.
If the situation basically limits the sport to 8 teams and 24 cars, team orders would control the overall competition. If one team was to pull out, it may only reduce the field by 3 cars but it would greatly reduce the effective 'competition'. I like underdog teams. Of course it is important that they are not so far off the pace that they create a danger to other cars but I think they should be encouraged.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2014, 03:55:51 PM »
if you make it impossible for a small team to get involved in F1 and hopefully develop into a successful team then in my opinion the sport will stagnate.
If the situation basically limits the sport to 8 teams and 24 cars, team orders would control the overall competition. If one team was to pull out, it may only reduce the field by 3 cars but it would greatly reduce the effective 'competition'. I like underdog teams. Of course it is important that they are not so far off the pace that they create a danger to other cars but I think they should be encouraged.

I don't have a problem with 'underdogs' joining the sport.  I have a problem with teams that aren't prepared to compete with Ferrari, McLaren and Red Bull joining the sport.

The big American sports won't let a new team join, or even an owner take over an existing franchise, without demonstrating a commitment to competing at the top level.  I don't see why F1 should allow teams that aren't prepared to compete at the top level either. 

I think the key will be that owners aren't allowed to leave without selling the team to another vetted owner.  In some ways, this will make people think twice about owning an F1 team.  I don't see a fundamental problem with that though.  The era of fly by night garagistas is over.

Offline Irisado

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2014, 04:15:12 PM »
Really? How about the Caterham or Saubers this year?

They don't come anywhere near close.  When the slowest car on the grid is only 3-4 seconds off pole (and that's artificial because the circuit is cleaner for the front runners in Q3, which makes the disparity greater), you're not talking about awful cars.  Cars which are not that good, or average to mediocre, definitely, but awful, no.

Quote
Sorry if it offends but any team, with at least 2 seasons experience under their belts, with a car incapable of reaching the points, even when a lot of top runners drop out, must either have a dog of a car or be a second class team. Bad luck can't be an excuse with the length of the seasons are now.

No on all counts.  First, few front runners have dropped out this season.  Ferrari, for example have a 100 percent reliability record, McLaren have only suffered two failures, Ricciardo has finished all bar one race, and the Mercedes cars have only three DNFs between them.  Add in a very good finishing record for Force India too, and you start to see that the chances to score are very limited.

Note too that Sauber had a very good chance to score in Monaco, but Gutierrez threw it away.  Caterham could also have scored, but Kobayashi left the door open for Bianchi.

I'm afraid I can't see much evidence to back up your points John.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Scott

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2014, 05:25:23 PM »
The way the sponsor pool has been getting shallower and shallower over the past few years has hurt the midfield long term teams the most.  They have lost valuable sponsors (Petronas from Sauber to Merc is a good example), and it has meant that they simply do not have the workforce, nor resources to put a car on the same level as a Ferrari, Merc or RBR. 

John, how can you expect them to do it simply with experience???  Even Mclaren has struggled the last couple of years and they HAVE the budget to compete with the other top teams.

As it has been said, the reliability of top runners is phenomenal, so there are far fewer of the back markers able to pick up a couple points by attrition, which is historically how they have done it.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline F1fanaticBD

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2014, 07:01:35 PM »
I do think the backmarkers have improved tremendously, and they have always kept the development pace, very nicely. As the season progress the bigger teams start to get faster, but I could hardly recall many races when the backmarkers were facing the 107% regulation, which for me do show their ability to develop as the season progress. There has been always the talk of the backmarkers not getting enough times in the broadcast, which also makes the sponsors unhappy and shy away from the smaller team to bigger. But if the F1 broadcast system is upgraded to show multiple windows at a time, I think it would definitely help the teams to survive by being able to hold onto the sponsors.
Keep running the fast cars, you will be never out of girls

Offline J.Clark

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 12:05:52 PM »
Ridding the grid of the small teams will not make the racing better.

Ridding the grid of the small teams will make it difficult for new drivers to get into the sport and bigger teams' race seats.

There are many things good for F1 that are made possible by only the small teams.

Look at the history and think about some of the now better teams have their roots.  Where did Mercedes for example start?
Life is short - live each day to the fullest.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2014, 03:10:08 PM »
Ridding the grid of the small teams will not make the racing better.

Ridding the grid of the small teams will make it difficult for new drivers to get into the sport and bigger teams' race seats.

There are many things good for F1 that are made possible by only the small teams.

Look at the history and think about some of the now better teams have their roots.  Where did Mercedes for example start?

24 race seats are 24 race seats.  They have to be filled.  If those 24 seats are backed by 'deep pocketed' teams, then they're less likely to be pay drivers taking them.  That would leave MORE room for up and coming drivers, not less.

I agree that at one time F1 needed the small teams to push innovation.  What innovations have small teams brought to the sport in the last 10 years?  Even if you count Williams and Sauber as 'small' teams, they haven't been at the forefront of innovation.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2014, 05:06:44 PM »
Williams developed an innovative KERS system, only to have it outlawed by the FIA. Frankly, I don't think innovation is encouraged in F1 anymore, the rules are too restrictive.
Lonny

Offline Scott

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 08:02:55 PM »
Williams developed an innovative KERS system, only to have it outlawed by the FIA. Frankly, I don't think innovation is encouraged in F1 anymore, the rules are too restrictive.

Couldn't agree more Lonny.  The FIA seems intent on crafting the regulations so that there are so few chances for any innovation at all, and when something interesting slips through, like Williams revolutionary non-electrical KERS, they kill it off.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Jericoke

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2014, 08:13:50 PM »
Williams developed an innovative KERS system, only to have it outlawed by the FIA. Frankly, I don't think innovation is encouraged in F1 anymore, the rules are too restrictive.

I will absolutely agree to that.  If F1 engineering is opened up, you'll find plenty of innovations coming from all corners of the sport, big and small.

As it stands, finding incremental solutions to common problems is expensive.  Finding a whole new way to race a car isn't expensive:  just risky.

F1 NEEDS the occasional odd ball car
  • midengine
  • aerodynamics
  • ground effects
  • six wheels
  • alternative fuels
  • alternative ers (it was my understanding that the Williams system just didn't work as hoped in an F1 car - perhaps more money would have solved whatever problems were outstanding)

Offline Scott

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 08:22:59 PM »
It was my understanding that it was a heavy flywheel spinning at F1 rpms, and how could they safely house it, kinda problem...safety, but at the time it sounded more like the big problem was that the other teams didn't think of it, so if it worked better than their electrical version, there would be a competition problem. |-( |-(
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Bernie:8 teams with 3 cars
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2014, 11:34:47 PM »
Porsche, a company known for their engineering, has been able to make it work quite well.
Lonny

 


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