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Author Topic: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix  (Read 4827 times)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2014, 07:57:37 AM »
I agree with the views above. For myself, a shout out to Button, who made the most of his unexpected grid spot and drove a solid if unspectacular race to be 4TH. The epic battle between Alonso and Vettel showed that Ferd is a better racer than Seb, though like Sir Stirling, he has a knack for being in the right car at the wrong time. Though I'm not a tifosi I hope Ferrari gives him a car he can at least contend in next year.
Lonny

Offline monty

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Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2014, 09:17:44 AM »
I thought Hamilton drove brilliantly and would have won under any circumstances. I am really happy that we have a WDC with just 4 points between 1 & 2. Button also drove well but I wished he had pushed earlier. McLaren and Jenson were so sure that Riciardo would have to pit again they took things too casually.
I am really pleased that Kimi is OK but the accident was completely his fault and has nothing to do with the track.
There used to be gravel traps and in the past his race would have been finished, but now we have these run-off areas and it is the responsibility of the driver to rejoin the track safely. Silverstone provides a well defined concrete area to rejoin. Kimi ignored this and tried to rejoin at high speed across the grass. It was dangerous for him and everyone else.

Offline Scott

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2014, 09:45:38 AM »
It is the FIA's job to provide a safe track, so if the can't iron out bumps around paved runoff areas where there are no kerbs (knowing the drivers aim for kerb-less areas to rejoin 'safely'), then they should put the gravel back in.  Not Kimi's fault...if there had been no bump, he would have rejoined safely, and even at half that speed the bump could have unsettled the car just as much.
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Offline cosworth151

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2014, 02:08:31 PM »
I give a cheer to Massa for his fast reaction to Kimi's spin. A less experienced driver might well have t-boned the Ferrari.

The Silverstone crews took far too long to repair the Armco barrier. As we noted in the Chat Room at the time, they didn't appear to have any power tools on site for quite a long time. A couple of impact tools could have sped the process along.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline monty

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Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2014, 03:09:32 PM »
Sorry Scott but I just can't agree. He was off the track and made no attempt to 'join safely'. He kept his foot in it and drove across the grass and the gutter. Gutters at Silverstone are essential. They are positioned safely and a long way from the racing line. This was a really bad piece of driving.

Offline J.Clark

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2014, 03:50:12 PM »
I agree with Monty on the safety issue.
I also agree that the kitty-litter should still be used.  The new, paved run-off areas mean that drivers rely on them to save their ass when they have truly mucked things up.

I also agree with cosworth on Massa's move.  Watching the replays from the onboard camera above Massa's head, there was virtually no time to react because even that onboard camera, positioned well above his head, Kimi's car and what was unfolding ahead was invisible to Massa - split-second decision and reaction saved all from a much worse accident.  I just wish he had had a moment more, as he very nearly missed Kimi - about 2 feet would have done it.

Fault Kimi totally for causing that one.
Life is short - live each day to the fullest.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2014, 03:52:24 PM »
Sorry Scott but I just can't agree. He was off the track and made no attempt to 'join safely'. He kept his foot in it and drove across the grass and the gutter. Gutters at Silverstone are essential. They are positioned safely and a long way from the racing line. This was a really bad piece of driving.

How far is one supposed to 'safely' drive an F1 car cross country?  There should be nowhere a driver can drive that is an unsafe point to re enter the track.  If the drains are necessary, then put them behind a barrier.  The whole point of a barrier at a race track is to keep cars away from places they don't belong.

Now, if the drains had been covered during a driver briefing, I'd blame Kimi for forgetting about it, but I don't know if he was ever instructed to avoid them.

Offline Scott

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2014, 05:27:46 PM »
I'm with Jeri.

There are two issues here. 

As far as the gravel vs asphalt, I like the asphalt simply because it doesn't usually mean the end of a drivers race if they go off in a small way, and there is more time to scrub off speed if they go off in a big way.  I would however prefer if there was a rule regarding how many places a driver must give up if they go off the track onto the paved runoff, or some other sort of penalty for just putting their foot in it while off track.  That would slow drivers down, but I am still not conceding that Kimi should have slowed down...he's a racer after all.  There are plenty of tracks where they have massive paved runoffs and drivers can re-enter the track safely at whatever speed they can carry with them because where there are no kerbs, it is a smooth transition.  Kimi came back on where there was a gap in the cars, where there were no kerbs, so he probably assumed it would be a safe merge. 

Secondly, the question is about safety regarding the transition from paved runoff and the track.  When a driver goes off track, be it in gravel or paved runoff, they always look to avoid the kerbs when they return to the track because they know how big a bump that is and how it can unsettle the car.  They have no reason to think that a little patch of grass between the pavement and the track that happens to have an almost invisible drainage ditch would have such a bump to cause the accident Kimi had.  The FIA and safety officials know this and I contend it is their responsibility to anticipate where a driver will attempt to re-enter the track from one of these runoff areas, and correct it, or as Jeri said, make sure the driver knows there is a danger there (and who are we to guess at what was said in a drivers briefing.  Maybe they did say something, but until someone explains it, we can only speculate.  Kimi won't be much help judging by his history of responses). 

Maybe even have a re-entry lane or gap indicated in red or something, and if a driver goes off say more than 5m with all 4 wheels, then they must take the indicated re-entry point, and have that groomed smooth as silk.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 05:32:57 PM by scott »
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline monty

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Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2014, 09:25:02 AM »
OK, I now understand.... you think that they should be racing on one huge piece of tarmac, no grass, no gutters, no dangerous kerbs, get rid of the dangerous armco. Think about it guys. He was so far off the 'track' he was almost in a different county. In most other tracks he would have had to cross rough grass, gravel, unmade roads, etc. At Silverstone they provide a concrete entry point clearly marked with green edges. Instead of slowing down, Kimi chose to ignore that and go across the grass at full speed. I don't care what you say, his decision was simply reckless.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2014, 12:33:33 PM »
It's not that at all. It's that there shouldn't be any hidden obstruction, ones that can't be readily seen from the driver's seat. Putting hidden booby traps on a racing circuit is a recipe for disaster.

“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline monty

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Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2014, 01:58:12 PM »
 :crazy: that is the point. The obstacle wasn't on the racetrack, it was well off the racetrack - like Kimi!!!!
Without exception every circuit has obstacles off the racing line. That is why drivers have to keep within the limits of the circuit. Please watch again. Kimi 'exceeds the limits of the circuit' then keeps it nailed. Ignores the concrete entry point and deliberately drives across the grass and the gutter. If you want to complain about Silverstone then you must complain about all circuits that now provide run-off areas. In the old days he would have been stuck in the gravel 'safe'. With run-off areas drivers get a second chance but they have to act responsibly.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2014, 02:21:26 PM »
If it can't be seen and a car can be ensnared by it during a race, it is an unnecessary  hazard.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2014, 03:06:52 PM »
:crazy: that is the point. The obstacle wasn't on the racetrack, it was well off the racetrack - like Kimi!!!!
Without exception every circuit has obstacles off the racing line. That is why drivers have to keep within the limits of the circuit. Please watch again. Kimi 'exceeds the limits of the circuit' then keeps it nailed. Ignores the concrete entry point and deliberately drives across the grass and the gutter. If you want to complain about Silverstone then you must complain about all circuits that now provide run-off areas. In the old days he would have been stuck in the gravel 'safe'. With run-off areas drivers get a second chance but they have to act responsibly.

That is the point though.

We're not saying that Kimi SHOULD have been given a second chance.  If he ends up in a gravel trap or an armco after his initial off, then too bad so sad.  What we're saying is that since he DID have a second chance, then the 'bump' he hit should have been visible.

You say he was reckless, yet without the bump, he rejoins in a gap in the traffic, going at racing speeds, perfectly within what is currently accepted by race stewards (as much a joke as THAT idea is).

Even if Kimi slows down, I'm not sure there's any speed that drain is safe for an F1 car to cross.  If it's a clearly marked obstacle, then once again, so sad too bad, but it wasn't.  Every other obstacle on the track is marked in white and red (except the black and gold demarcking Maldonado  :tease: ).  Why not the drain?

Now with all that out of the way... if we make hidden obstacles part of the course design, that would keep drivers online just as well as gravel traps or armco!  Just make sure the drivers are aware that something COULD happen if they're not careful.  (And I don't mean an angry radio call from Alonso)

Offline J.Clark

Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2014, 03:47:21 PM »
Having done a little racing in my youth, I have to wonder - how much mirror checking did Kimi do before trying to rejoin the circuit.  It was fairly clear that he never took his foot off of the gas.

The arguments for and against gravel/paved run-offs could be muted with the simple addition of a rule and a painted line.  The simple version: (1) add a line, will say for now a RED LINE (like that sound), about a car's width from the line delineating the edge of the race course; (2) if a car/driver puts all four wheels over that line, they must slow to 100km/hr and re-enter the circuit at an angle not less than 45 degrees, to allow time and a favorable angle to check traffic before pulling out into traffic. 

Let's face it, the driver made a gross error and there needs to be some form of consequence.  With the paved run-off areas we have today, there is very little (and at several circuits almost no) consequence, as the drivers simply keep their foot on the gas and keep going, depending those approaching to beware.
Life is short - live each day to the fullest.

Offline monty

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Re: Silverstone Santander British Grand Prix
« Reply #29 on: July 08, 2014, 04:25:59 PM »
Thank goodness another racing driver can see my point.
I'm not being harsh on Kimi.  It is just a fact that there are obstacles all over every circuit and it is up to the driver to drive safely if he is off of the designated racetrack. I have raced at Silverstone (the old circuit) and it is one of the safest circuits in the world. Unlike other circuits there are no drain covers, no 'sleeping policemen' outer kerbs, even the grass is flat without big potholes just on the inside of the apexes. The gulleys / gutters are essential for a flat circuit in an area where rain is almost guaranteed and they are positioned in such a way that if you go into any of them from a 'normal' racing position you would barely notice. Kimi decided to drive across one at almost 90degrees at full chat even though there was a marked concrete entry point about 40feet earlier. This was a reckless act. Of course I understand why he did it. He wanted to minimise how much time he was losing but he did not make any effort to 'rejoin safely'.

 


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