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Author Topic: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes  (Read 4003 times)

Offline John S

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2014, 10:41:33 AM »

The whole essence of F1 from the start has been a variety of individual constructors rather than a single chassis maker. It nearly became a one engine series during the Ford DFV era, but that's another story.

I thought one of the main reasons the 3 car teams scenario is so hotly debated is to prevent dilution of the ingenuity and individuality amongst the cars and therefore the teams. So yes to a very large extent in F1 the car's constructor defines the teams and always has.

Most of us don't think of Stirling Moss winning in the 1960 & 61 Monaco GPs in a Rob Walker racing team car but rather in a Lotus 18.

   
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Scott

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2014, 11:08:51 AM »
It's no different than the FIA signing up Pirelli as the only tire supplier.  Create a monocoque that the teams can build their car on top of.  It doesn't mean the cars won't be quite different in their final design.

For me the problem with the 3 car teams is simply that it means fewer teams.  I even agree with customer cars, in fact I think it's a brilliant idea to remove so much R&D costs from a small team, so I have no problem with more than 2 cars from one manufacturer on the grid.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline cosworth151

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2014, 03:55:00 PM »
Quote
Create a monocoque that the teams can build their car on top of.  It doesn't mean the cars won't be quite different in their final design.

Wouldn't that be the same as the IRL idea of "aero kits?"

Customer cars do have a long history in F1. Rob Walker running customer Lotus cars back in the 60's. Remember, the Lotus 18 that Sterling Moss drove to his famous 1961 victory at Monaco was entered by Rob Walker, not Colin Chapman. In this millennium, Aguri Suzuki did a tremendous job with cars that were little more than year old Hondas.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 05:13:48 PM »
Quote
Create a monocoque that the teams can build their car on top of.  It doesn't mean the cars won't be quite different in their final design.

Wouldn't that be the same as the IRL idea of "aero kits?"

Customer cars do have a long history in F1. Rob Walker running customer Lotus cars back in the 60's. Remember, the Lotus 18 that Sterling Moss drove to his famous 1961 victory at Monaco was entered by Rob Walker, not Colin Chapman. In this millennium, Aguri Suzuki did a tremendous job with cars that were little more than year old Hondas.

Yes, my suggestion was to copy the IRL's idea.  I'm not suggesting the entire chassis be standard, simply the driver safety cell so teams (and the FIA) don't have to waste time and money crash testing every single one.

It doesn't make sense for Williams, Ferrari and Marussia to each design their own roll hoop, or for Lotus, Caterham and Sauber to each solve the side crash impact zone problem.  We need to guarantee each car is safe.  It's a bonus that we can include that as a cost cutting measure.

Offline John S

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2014, 05:20:42 PM »
Oh I get it now Jeri, you want them all to run 'stock' cars.  :D

I heard the idea took off in North America,  ;)  but it never seemed to catch on real well over here.  :D

   
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2014, 05:34:51 PM »
Oh I get it now Jeri, you want them all to run 'stock' cars.  :D

I heard the idea took off in North America,  ;)  but it never seemed to catch on real well over here.  :D

   

Given how many parts of an F1 car are currently 'stock', doesn't it seem absurd that safety features AREN'T standardized?

Offline John S

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2014, 05:54:07 PM »


Given how many parts of an F1 car are currently 'stock', doesn't it seem absurd that safety features AREN'T standardized?

But they are Jeri, they just don't have to be the same design.

 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Scott

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2014, 10:47:11 PM »


Given how many parts of an F1 car are currently 'stock', doesn't it seem absurd that safety features AREN'T standardized?

But they are Jeri, they just don't have to be the same design.

I bet the amount of money that goes into punching out another engine block is considerably less than what it costs to design, build and test a new safety cell, yet the FIA would rather the teams saved money by limiting engines instead....what Jeri said - absurd.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline monty

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Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2014, 01:44:00 PM »
We have ventured into a whole new subject with nothing to do with the Russian GP but the various views are fascinating.
It is all total speculation because the FIA never listen to the enthusiasts anyway!
I veer from wanting more regulation to wanting no regulation.
I think we all want close racing but what bothers me is that F1 used to be the fastest of all motorsports but GP2 cars can lap certain tracks faster that the current F1 car - that cannot be what race fans want!
The latest regulated (strangled) F1 car is too easy to drive (hence the new young drivers), is not operated at 100% of its potential (fuel saving, protecting reliability, etc.) plus the drivers rely on too much outside assistance (telemetry, engineers advice, etc.).
There have been good points made in this thread but I feel that most would dumb down F1 even more (however, I don't have any ideas that are necessarily better!).
One thing I'm sure of is that they need to stop making such massive changes to the regulations from one year to the next. I think they should retain the current technical regulations but they should increase the minimum starting weight (make sure they all start with full tanks), they should split the allocation of power units into first half and second half of the season and allow one engine design upgrade in the middle of the year, drop the stupid double points rule, give points for pole, give points for the driver that strings the fastest 10 race laps together, and, and.......

Offline Jericoke

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2014, 03:05:37 PM »
We have ventured into a whole new subject with nothing to do with the Russian GP but the various views are fascinating.
It is all total speculation because the FIA never listen to the enthusiasts anyway!
I veer from wanting more regulation to wanting no regulation.
I think we all want close racing but what bothers me is that F1 used to be the fastest of all motorsports but GP2 cars can lap certain tracks faster that the current F1 car - that cannot be what race fans want!
The latest regulated (strangled) F1 car is too easy to drive (hence the new young drivers), is not operated at 100% of its potential (fuel saving, protecting reliability, etc.) plus the drivers rely on too much outside assistance (telemetry, engineers advice, etc.).
There have been good points made in this thread but I feel that most would dumb down F1 even more (however, I don't have any ideas that are necessarily better!).
One thing I'm sure of is that they need to stop making such massive changes to the regulations from one year to the next. I think they should retain the current technical regulations but they should increase the minimum starting weight (make sure they all start with full tanks), they should split the allocation of power units into first half and second half of the season and allow one engine design upgrade in the middle of the year, drop the stupid double points rule, give points for pole, give points for the driver that strings the fastest 10 race laps together, and, and.......

Off topic on GP Wizard?  Never happens   :P

There are plenty of 'good' reasons for the rules to change year over year.  Safetey issues come up, suppliers make demands that must be met, teams believe that certain rules aren't clear.

Individually they make sense.  As a whole... that's another story.

Offline Irisado

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2014, 11:35:20 PM »
They've tried customer cars before, and it has never worked.  Standardisation isn't the way forward.  If they want to save money, they need to look at other options, and the teams need to receive more income from the television and commercial rights holder.  That way we could have a full grid of 13 diverse teams.
Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2014, 07:11:05 AM »
Actually, customer cars have worked quite well. As noted Rob Walker ran a number of cars for drivers such as Stirling Moss, Seppi Siffert and Graham Hill with remarkable success. March sold cars to Ken Tyrrell for Stewart and they were usually faster than the works team. Others, like Innes Ireland and Hector Rebaque ran Lotus chassis for private teams with varying results. Ferrari was even going to supply Walker with a car for Moss until the later was injured.
Lonny

Offline John S

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2014, 11:40:41 AM »

I think it was the inception of the constructors championship that killed off customer cars, and that championship is the stumbling block today about allowing customer cars.

Most of the big names in F1, in the teams, FOM and FIA, seem reluctant to concede just 2 classes of entrant in F1, let alone more like endurance racing.

The argument is and always has been about keeping the purity of F1, if you're good enough to be on the grid you should be striving to win a race along with all the other contestants. Now if you're not good enough the reasoning continues, you should vacate your place for someone else to take a shot, after all there's quite a lot of lower series if you can't stand the heat.

I can't make up my mind whether I'm for or agin 2 classes in F1, although I know really that's what we've got currently.

For me separate F1 classes just seems to be one of those 'crossing the Rubicon' issues, which the current Caesar 'Bernie' flatly refuses to even acknowledge let alone allow discussion on.

 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2014, 02:53:55 PM »
In the early days only the highest placed car scored points. So if Moss won in Walker's Cooper, Cooper got 1st place points and the factory Coopers scored nil.
Lonny

Offline Scott

Re: Russian GP Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2014, 06:48:21 PM »
They could also simply change the Constructors Championship to the F1 Team Championship.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

 


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