Refueling return?

[J.Clark]

Yes - bring it

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/218844/1/f1-refuelling-return-proposed-for-2017.html

[Scott]

 

Pit stops are WAY too fast and have too little effect on strategy.  I also don't like any restrictions on fuel, whether it is fuel flow restrictions or fuel tank restrictions.  Fuel = Speed after all.  Bring back refuelling!   

[cosworth151]

I'm all for it! I also agree with Scott about the fuel limits. Leave that for the undercard racing events.

[Scott]

Sadly, the FIA have put a damper on the excitement of refuelling:

'The FIA said a "maximum race fuel allowance" would be retained. A spokesman said there had been "no agreement to change" the current 100kg limit but added: "This could evolve." However, he added that the maximum fuel-flow rate of 100kg per hour would stay.'

A rule permitting the teams to choose their own tire variations for each race was pushed through even though Pirelli had reservations about the plan.

And tucked in among the details is the report that the teams have rejected the chance for teams to use 5 engines this season up from 4.  This little nugget means we will most likely hear from Dieter, Marko and Mr. Horner on wishy-washy threats to leave the sport.  Some reports have the Audi-Sport chief now suggesting F1 is on the horizon for the company, so Dieter may actually have a way out.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/32751118

[cosworth151]

And tucked in among the details is the report that the teams have rejected the chance for teams to use 5 engines this season up from 4.  This little nugget means we will most likely hear from Dieter, Marko and Mr. Horner on wishy-washy threats to leave the sport.  Some reports have the Audi-Sport chief now suggesting F1 is on the horizon for the company, so Dieter may actually have a way out.

From Autosport:

"Whether it's five or eight engines, it doesn't make a difference to us," Horner said at the time. "It's inevitable we are going to have to take eight, up to nine engines this season."

That could be the engine savings that everyone said would come with the V6. Buy in bulk & save!!!!

[John S]

That could be the engine savings that everyone said would come with the V6. Buy in bulk & save!!!!

That's a tad unfair Cossie, only Renault are having such extreme problems, Merc cars have made it through to Spain on only on engine - and I believe Ferrari teams have pretty much done the same. Honda can't be counted in the equation as they are playing catch up this season.

Now if two of the three can keep reliability on track to cut the number of engines in the season I'd say the other one, Renault, has simply fouled up - not the regulations.

On the subject of in race refuelling; in principle sounds fine but if they are going to aim for the 4 second stops they currently have, and that's what they say they're aiming for, it will require even more expensive equipment to dispense it.

I prefer a slower refuel delivery so that it's not certain all cars will then take that option, gives yet another twist to the race strategy. 

[Scott]

No John, the problem is the new rules that go along with the new formula.  The fact that an engine manufacturer can't go back to the drawing board and build a new engine...they have to be guided by these silly 'tokens' and only make tweaks to the one they have.  So if you built a lump to begin with like Renault did, they have no way out.  That is what is not fair.

[John S]

No John, the problem is the new rules that go along with the new formula.  The fact that an engine manufacturer can't go back to the drawing board and build a new engine...they have to be guided by these silly 'tokens' and only make tweaks to the one they have.  So if you built a lump to begin with like Renault did, they have no way out.  That is what is not fair.

Where do the rules say you can't develop a new engine?    You can start from scratch as long as the resulting changes don't exceed the tokens.

A lot of the engine, or power unit as they like to call it, would be mostly the same even if you began again from scratch surely? Certain elements are pretty common across all the manufacturers aren't they?     

They wouldn't be able to develop it in season if they had used all the tokens, but then is that any worse than tinkering with a resuscitated corpse like they are now.   

[lkjohnson1950]

Unlike Cossie, I don't loath and despise turbos. My Subie has more power from less displacement with better fuel economy than the Ford it replaced. I fail to see how that can be a bad thing. The problem is not with the current crop of power units, but with the ridiculous rules about RPM limits, fuel flow and volume restrictions and limits on how many you can use. This is not the Mobil Economy Run, or durability testing. IT'S RACING. Why the FIA seems not to understand that escapes me. Todt was a racer for God's sake. F1 will continue to slide until they are once again the fastest, most powerful cars on the track.

 

[Scott]

The old formula didn't have 'tokens', and it wasn't so long ago that teams could develop the engines any way they wanted as long as cylinder numbers and displacement remained.

[John S]

Felipe Massa supports the re-introduction of refuelling in Formula 1.     
Maybe he liked all the attention he got - and still does - from towing 10 metres of hose the full length of the pitlane. 

Massa told Sky Sports, “I don’t think it’s a problem for safety. We had many years with refuelling in Formula 1 and we had a few problems, but not really very dangerous problems to be honest.”

The Brazilian explained, “I think it’s a good thing and [will] change completely the race. The problem now is that we will race with very heavy cars with the full tank and the lap times, if you compare qualifying and the race, it’s a big difference.”

“It’s a lot slower compared to how it was with the refuelling. I’m sure the race will be more interesting and nicer for the driving – more sprint racing. So I like the refuelling and I am in favour.”

Courtesy Grandprix247.com, Today.

[cosworth151]

Steve Matchett brought up another point. During NBCSN's coverage of FP2, he said that it would cost teams about one half million dollars. That would include the cost and maintenance of the rigs, plus the cost of shipping them to all of the races. No good in this day of small teams going bankrupt.

[Jericoke]

I can't say I miss refueling.

Given the number of close calls leading up to the ban, I'm glad they didn't wait for an actual disaster before stopping it.

I still don't like the fuel limits though.  The costs of carrying extra fuel weight don't change regardless of the rules.  If teams want the car to run heavy longer to save fuel for the end, then let them.

[John S]

All the teams are now against refuelling, according to Andrew Benson on the BBCF1 website.
Looks very much like it ain't gonna happen then.   


None of the teams are in favour of refuelling, which was banned on grounds of cost, safety and because it reduced the amount of on-track overtaking.

Further talks this week have revealed major opposition, with teams concerned about the costs.

A meeting of sporting directors in Monaco on Friday concluded that refuelling would add about a million euros to each team's annual budget. Several smaller teams are struggling to make ends meet at the moment.

The teams are to do further analysis on the effects re-introducing refuelling would have on the racing. The findings will be presented at a meeting at the next race in Canada on 5-7 June.

Statistics show that the years during the refuelling era of 1994-2009 produced consistently the lowest number of overtaking manoeuvres on track per race of any year since 1980.

Edited from a longer piece by Andrew Benson, BBC.co.uk, Sat 24th May.

[Steve A.]

Well that's a shame as far as I'm concerned,  I would have liked it back.  Lighter cars at the start, less wear on the tyres and I think better racing right from the start.