The Return of Customer Cars

[cosworth151]

The Strategy Group meeting yesterday (14 May) brought back the idea of customer cars. They say that existing independents will get first dibs on them.

Yuck!   

http://www.racer.com/f1/item/116764-f1-opens-door-to-customer-cars

[John S]

Sweet, so Red Bull can buy this years Williams for next season - should give them a better start than this year as long as they can have this years Merc engine. 

[Scott]

It's going to be all in the details.  How much will they cost, what kind of development schedule can the customers expect, what restrictions will the customers have, and finally, the customer car will also mean the team will be tied into a certain engine.  I would want some performance clauses built in if I was a customer.

Though I think customer cars can bring in new teams, I am sceptical about why now, with these teams that usually never agree on anything. 

What's the catch?

[Alianora La Canta]

The catches are that we would likely lose all the old teams (none of whom want to buy customer cars and none of whom can make them a loss-making item like the manufacturers can), it would drastically restrict what sort of rules could be implemented without causing problems amongst the most powerful teams, it brings more teams under the thumb of those who have an incentive to break F1 and it makes the racing samier, thus reducing revenues and making the "break F1, get loot and run" strategy that some teams seem to want to use more viable.

(For anyone in doubt, I have issues with this proposed rule).

[Jericoke]

I'd like to see limits on customer cars, but I'm not opposed to them. 

Given the current expense of designing and building an F1 car, while Ferrari or RBR can 'develope' their way out of a bad chassis, other teams can't.  How often have we seen midfield teams give up to 'focus on next season'?

Limit the eligibility of customer chassis to teams coming in the bottom half of the WCC.  Perhaps limit to using customer chassis to only 2 consecutive seasons (if you have no intention of being a serious constructor, get out)

[Irisado]

It would be a really bad idea to bring this back.  They've tried it previously and it has always ended in failure.  If they want to help the small teams, this is completely the wrong way to go about it.  It also removes diversity, and each team being a unique competitor, from the sport.

[Jericoke]

It would be a really bad idea to bring this back.  They've tried it previously and it has always ended in failure.  If they want to help the small teams, this is completely the wrong way to go about it.  It also removes diversity, and each team being a unique competitor, from the sport.

How has customer chassis' ended in failure?

Ferrari seems to be doing okay.
Toro Rosso only stayed in F1 because of customer chassis, and they're doing well.
Williams entered the sport with a March chassis, and it's been a while since they won  a championship, but they're pretty successful.

In fact, the only customer chassis team to fold since I started watching F1 was Super Aguri.  Considering the number of failed teams using their own designs, that's a pretty good record.

Even Bernie got his start in F1 using customer chassis... oh, NOW I see the problem 

[cosworth151]

Even the early Honda F1 car was a customer unit. The dismal performance of the 1967 Honda RA273 lead to the Honda RA300. John Surtees scored Honda's first F1 win in an RA300 at Monza of that year.

The RA300 was a modified Lola T90 with the Honda V12 from the RA273. At the time, it was sometimes snidely referred to as the "Hondola."  Surtees helped broker the deal between Honda and Lola founder Eric Broadley.

[lkjohnson1950]

Ah, Cossie. I see a touch of memory trouble eh? Richie Ginther scored Honda's first win at the 1965 Mexican GP. Transverse engined V12 gem.

[Scott]

Plus it'll give RBR another reason to cry foul.  They wanted to use hand-me-downs at STR, and now they can?  Not fair, not fair!

[Irisado]

How has customer chassis' ended in failure?

Super Aguri, Hispania (they used a Dallara chassis), Scuderia Italia (Lola and Dallara chassis), Larrousse (Lola chassis from 1987-1991), and plenty more which didn't achieve very much back in the 1970s.  All of these teams failed.

Ferrari seems to be doing okay.
Toro Rosso only stayed in F1 because of customer chassis, and they're doing well.
Williams entered the sport with a March chassis, and it's been a while since they won  a championship, but they're pretty successful.

Ferrari haven't supplied customer teams with a chassis since the 1950s/1960s, Toro Rosso receive the vast majority of their funding from Red Bull, and they have had to design their own chassis for the last few years, so I don't think they they are a good example, and Williams haven't used a customer chassis for years, as you say.  If customer chassis were such a good idea, then surely Williams would still be using one (rules permitting) .

In fact, the only customer chassis team to fold since I started watching F1 was Super Aguri.  Considering the number of failed teams using their own designs, that's a pretty good record.

You started watching in 1996 if I remember correctly, and customer cars were only allowed for period between 2006 and 2009.  As a result, it's not a viable comparison that you're making in my opinion.

Even Bernie got his start in F1 using customer chassis... oh, NOW I see the problem 

Quite so !

Customer cars rob teams of their identity and are as bad as the big teams just fielding three or four cars.  They shouldn't be allowed on that basis either in my view.

[lkjohnson1950]

A team organized along the lines of the late Rob Walker's could be interesting. He ran a 3RD Lotus that was usually prepped by the factory, but was entered, paid for and run by Rob at the events. This would allow teams to run a 3RD car but have the expense at least partially defrayed. Rob also had (almost) the last Ferrari customer car. he had a deal in place to run a Ferrari 156 for Stirling Moss, but Moss was injured and retired before the season started.

[cosworth151]

I wouldn't call Super Aguri a failure. They gave the Honda factory team a run for their money using Honda's year old hand-me-downs. That's why Honda pulled the rug out from under them. SA was too successful.

Ah, Cossie. I see a touch of memory trouble eh? Richie Ginther scored Honda's first win at the 1965 Mexican GP. Transverse engined V12 gem.

Right you are. I guess F1 cars with engines smaller than my Yugo just aren't that memorable. 

[lkjohnson1950]

Did make a bit more power than your Yugo and sounded fantastic. 1500cc V12, amazing!!

[cosworth151]

It's supposed to be F1, not F1.5L