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Author Topic: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again  (Read 4691 times)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2016, 01:46:03 PM »
Wheel to wheel racing won't happen unless they change the Aero rules, and the teams don't want that so might as well bring on the chess match. Any mixing of the result is better than nothing.
Lonny

Offline Warmwater

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2016, 09:22:54 PM »
Agree Lonny, there is not much chance of the rules getting completely overhauled even though most of the rules are so restricting, especially the engine freeze. If they want to restrict something it should be aero, remember the green Lotus (?) of Jimmy Clark.... absolutely beautiful and it would drift around curves within inches of his soul-mates... and you could actually see their faces and not just the top of the helmet! No downforce gimmicks at all, and with actual road tread on the tires, it was up to the driver to try to make the car stick to the road. Please bring back the formula of racecars of the Stirling Moss era (but with better safety features and bigger engines).
If everything seems under control, you're not going fast enough.” ― Mario Andretti.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2016, 09:56:14 PM »
Seen my avatar?   :D :D
Lonny

Offline Monty

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2016, 01:29:19 PM »
 :fool: :fool: :fool:
Refuelling is dangerous (more dangerous than not refuelling) and introduces yet another 'throw of the dice' element. It is not strategic and it isn't interesting. It just breaks up the 'race'. We are supposed to be 'race enthusiasts'. Car and driver against car and driver. Tyre stops already spoil this, refuelling would make it worse.
The re-introduction of fuel stops would probably be the final straw for me. I would stop following F1 and watch series that have got proper racing - Touring Cars, MotoGP, Superbikes....

Offline John S

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Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2016, 11:00:50 PM »
Sure refuelling is dangerous, hell I'm old enough to remember when F1 racing without refuelling was even more dangerous, but I still think it can add something to the spectacle.

I love trying to guess the strategies that teams or drivers are employing in the races, indeed I even shout at the TV when Brundle or Coulthard don't seem able to keep up with what some drivers are actually doing when they previously reported information that clearly points to a driver's counter strategy to others.

Refuelling will add extra layers to the strategy games the likes of Symonds, etc can bring on race day. I welcome it to add more obfuscation and therefore, for me anyway, more interest.       
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2016, 08:06:52 PM »
What are they doing?????
Shouldn't the focus be on wheel to wheel racing... not some strategy game about juggling weigh, fuel economy, pit time, etc.
Some slowpoke will hit it lucky with the safety car / refueling crapshoot and win the parade, then how can I hope to keep my Grid Game Flags???  >:D

It's always better to be lucky than good.  There's a few WDC who can attest to that.

If they're going to bring back refueling, perhaps some rules that might make it more interesting:
  • Each Car uses the same amount of fuel per race.  If your car is more efficient, then you're hauling ballast to the finish line.  (My theory here is that there is no reward for 'running lean')
  • Enough of this 'pump petrol' crap.  The engine and tire manufacturers are pushing the limits, why not the fuel suppliers?  There's not a single piece of F1 technology in my 2012 Ford Escape.  Why should it use the same gasoline?

Offline cosworth151

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2016, 08:32:47 PM »
C'mon, Jeri. Do you really thing that the Shell in Seb's Ferrari has much in common with the stuff down at the local gas station?  ;)
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2016, 03:27:05 PM »
C'mon, Jeri. Do you really thing that the Shell in Seb's Ferrari has much in common with the stuff down at the local gas station?  ;)
That's the rule, and we know they actually test the fuel.

Indycar wouldn't run on ethanol if it wasn't a better fuel for racing.

Offline Bobbsy

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2016, 06:47:26 AM »
Count me as another one who would like to see re-fueling come back, for all the reasons already discussed.  It adds another level of strategy and gets away from the present situation where cars start super heavy and end up super light.  If we want to talk about more racing, how often have we heard the call "stop pressing for a few laps...we have to save fuel".  That sure makes for excitement.

Yes, it would add some element of risk but Formula 1 is a dangerous sport.  The risk can be minimised with gravity feed fueling and some form of fail-safe mechanism.

Obviously, fueling is just one change needed to make the sport exciting again.  Sort out the aero.  Get rid of a lot of the computers that do the driver's job.  Etc. etc.

Offline Steve A.

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2016, 04:37:01 PM »
One of the biggest things for me are these awful 'power unit's' and we are stuck with them until 2020. Get back to real engines please.

Offline Willy

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2016, 09:15:18 PM »

Offline J.Clark

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2016, 05:51:09 PM »
So many changes to how we do business have occurred in the past decade or so.  We stopped refueling.  We went from slicks to grooved tires and back to slicks.  We changed the rules drastically regarding wings and even added a movable aero-dynamic part in the form of DRS.  We went from V-10s to V-8s to a turbo-charged V-6. 

That doesn't even take into consideration the changes regarding other aspects.  There was a tim when teams had "qualifying" engines, changed out be qualifying and the race.  We changed the qualifying format a bizillion times it seemed.

A majority of the changes were to slow the cars down.
Some were to try and regulate competition to make it more interesting.
None of those things worked because the engineers made the cars quicker under the changes.  The quicker cars got quicker exponentially, widening the gap between cars instead of closing it.

Many changes were introduced in an attempt to cut costs.  Those ideas too were failures in large part, with the end result costing teams more to be competitive.

I completely disagree with the notion that refueling is such a dangerous thing to do.  Really, when (and how many) pit crew or drivers were burned during refueling during a race, over the more than 60 years of Formula 1 racing?  I do not know the answer; although, it is probably readily available, my point being that it is a small number because it would otherwise be easily recalled without looking it up.

Even in 2008, when Massa was released with the rig still engaged with his car, and he drove all of the way down the pit lane, nobody was burned.  There had to have been some fuel spilled in that incident.

I am fully in favor of putting refueling back into the equation.
Life is short - live each day to the fullest.

Offline Monty

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2016, 11:12:47 AM »
I'm not saying I am right and everyone that wants refuelling is wrong (that is what I think but I am definitely not saying it) but I really do not understand why people think it will be an improvement.
When I think back to the races when refuelling was normal, I can't think of a single occasion where the refuelling added to the excitement of the race - not once! Yes certain accidents and mistakes actually changed the result of the race but unless such mistakes elevated your driver of choice, I can't see how this could be considered as more exciting. The fastest cars were fast, the slowest cars were slow and refuelling changed nothing.
In my (almost 'humble') opinion all pit stops simply break up the race. In F1 I believe pit stops were introduced to provide an opportunity for overtaking because it was almost impossible to overtake out on the track. Of course I recognise that these now have to be strategically timed but isn't that fact a slap in the face for race enthusiasts? Every change to the F1 regs should now be focussed at making overtaking on the track possible.

Offline John S

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Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2016, 11:32:59 AM »

In my (almost 'humble') opinion all pit stops simply break up the race. In F1 I believe pit stops were introduced to provide an opportunity for overtaking because it was almost impossible to overtake out on the track. Of course I recognise that these now have to be strategically timed but isn't that fact a slap in the face for race enthusiasts? Every change to the F1 regs should now be focussed at making overtaking on the track possible.

Sure it's better to have overtaking on track but somehow I don't see this happening when the likes of Red Bull put so much store on aero as the only differential between cars. Also F1 is a team game, has been for the last 30 years, and because of this we are not able to have real head to head races from the drivers in big teams.

I am just as interested in strategy as the on track fights  - or rather lack of them these days - and variable fuel loads makes another level of strategy to be considered both by the teams, drivers and many of us spectators.

I also like seeing the commentators and so called experts make fools of themselves trying to keep up with the twists, turns and curved balls of strategy battles on track - and usually getting their knickers in a right old crumpled state. :D :D
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline J.Clark

Re: Refuelling Back on the Agenda Yet Again
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2016, 02:42:01 PM »
I can understand you point of view Monty; however, I don't agree with part of your logic about the car and driver v car and driver being what it is about.

This is a little off the topic of refueling, but the same logic should apply across the board, not just to refueling.

If we truly want that, and in a very general way, I am with you, then we need to stop waving the blue flag all of the time.  I watch a lot of racing and Formula 1 is the only series where the blue flag is used to any great extent.  If faster cars stack up behind a slower car, over-taking the slower cars without one's self being over-taken should be part of racing.
Life is short - live each day to the fullest.

 


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