Brexit

[Jericoke]

I am gutted at the way the vote went. So much damage done and will continue to be done over the next few years. Boris and Trump in power is a real concern. I worry for the future, for my kids and their choices. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but I have spoken to a few people who voted out and didn't know what they were voting for, they followed their friends. And some of those would now change their votes. One of the most Googled phrases at the moment is 'what is the EU'   that kind of sums it up.

I would think if the EU were 100% beneficial, it would be a trivial matter to simply hold up a list of things the EU does that the UK can't on its own.

Personally, I didn't follow it closely, as it doesn't affect me.  I think that being united is better than separate, and that the EU is a good idea, even if it's not good itself:  there's always room to improve a broken idea.

However, given that the people who voted to leave the EU are the people who remember what life was like before the EU.   They can directly see how the UK has been affected by the EU.   How can someone without experience argue with someone who has experience?

[Ian]

However, given that the people who voted to leave the EU are the people who remember what life was like before the EU.   They can directly see how the UK has been affected by the EU.   How can someone without experience argue with someone who has experience?

My sentiments exactly Jeri 

[Steve A.]

However the UK was a very different place before the EU. Now we have no industry, we have foreign investment it can't go back, it won't work. Just one example, Nissan,  not far from me, the next new model will almost certainly go to somewhere in the EU and not Washington. The older generation fought to free the world from fascism, they may well have opened the door for it.

[cosworth151]

I just saw my first real-world fallout from the Brexit. I received this e-mail advert from SpridgetMania, a supplier of Austin Healey Sprite, MG Midget & Morris Minor parts.

[Scott]

What?  What?  Boris spearheaded this thing and now he's bowing out of a race for the PM?  What a spineless git.  I am starting to think you are right Ian, this eventually won't even happen, but not for the same reasons as you think.  I don't think it's going to happen because there is nobody in the Leave camp who has the kahoonas to lead the country through the negotiations and exit.  Sad...

...on second thought, there is one guy in British politics with the brains and brawn to do the job, but he's Canadian, and a wee bit Irish.  Mark Carney, your current head of the Bank of England.  He would never go for the PM job, but he could be appointed to a new position - Lord of the Leave or something. 

[Ian]

Oliver Letwin, a pro 'Remain' is sorting out the 'Leave' negotiations, says it all doesn't it, said we wouldn't be leaving didn't I.

[John S]

What?  What?  Boris spearheaded this thing and now he's bowing out of a race for the PM?  What a spineless git. 

That's the game of politics Scott, it's a lot like poker, you've got to know when to hold and when to fold - if you ever want to get the top job.

[Irisado]

I'd avoided logging in here all week in the vain hope that this hadn't been discussed, but my hopes have been dashed.

I'm disgusted by some of the comments here, and how they lack any factual basis.  So, let's start to inject some facts into this discussion:

1.  The EU is not a dictatorship.  Here is how the ordinary legislative procedure works:

The Commission makes a proposal.  This is then approved, amended, or rejected by the Council of Ministers and European Parliament in conjunction.  The parliament is fully elected and the the Council of Ministers comprises elected members of each national government, regardless of which ministerial configuration is sitting.  As for the Commission, its members are nominated by the elected heads of state and government, but have to be approved by the European Parliament, which has the power to refuse any candidate (and it has exercised that power in the past), and also has the power to dismiss the entire Commission (as it was preparing to do in 1999 before the Santer Commission resigned en masse).

So, where is the dictatorship in all of that?  Nowhere is the answer.

2. There is no EU government.  All member states have their own governments and have the power to vote against policy they do not like (see above), and also can wield the veto over certain policy areas that sit outside the framework of the Ordinary Legislative Procedure.

3. The EU is not a large bureaucracy.  It is smaller than all the government departments individually in the UK and the Commission employs fewer civil servants than any UK government department.

4. The EU budget has been decreased for a number of years now.  Also, the UK's contribution is Ģ8.5bn net per year.  Ģ350 per week was lie promoted by the deceitful Vote Leave campaign (see below), which did not include the rebate.  By comparison, the NHS budget for the year 2015/16 is Ģ116bn.  The EU, furthermore is, along with International Development, the area which receives the smallest amount of UK taxpayers money.  Thus, claims that the EU costs us a lot of money are false.

5. The EU spends a lot of money in the UK.  It is correct that the UK is a net contributor, however, that is as it should be, given our economic status.  The Germans and French contribute more to the EU than we do, and all the member states contribute to the UK's rebate.  Furthermore, the EU allocates money to the UK for research, farming, and regions to name but three areas.  The regions, such as Cornwall, the North East, Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland, in particular receive significantly high sums of money, among the highest in the EU, because of their relative poverty.

6. Immigration.  The House of Commons Library Report on Brexit, Full Fact, and Open Europe (all of which were neutral during the EU referendum) all reported, together with academic studies, that EEA migrants (which include all EU migrants) are of net benefit to the UK economy, and do not represent a burden to public services.  In fact, they use public services less than UK nationals do.  If you want a summary of all this, take a look a former of colleague's short blog post on this subject: http://nottspolitics.org/2016/04/13/brexit-or-bremain-immigration-and-eu-membership/

7. Border controls.  The UK is outside Schengen.  The Vote Leave leaflets saying that we cannot control our borders are, therefore, false.  The UK does have border controls, does monitor people coming in and leaving, and, crucially, there was no way that the UK would have had to accept Turkish nationals under the deal that was agreed between Merkel and Erdogan.  It did not affect the UK.  So, Vote Leave lied again.

8. Leaving the EU will not stop immigration.  Another false claim made by some in the leave camp.  The UK is a signatory to the 1951 Geneva Convention.  This obliges us to take in asylum seekers.  This will not change.  In other words, all those coming from Africa, the Middle East, and the camp at Calais will still come, because nothing, for them, has changed.  Given that 188,000 net migrants came from outside the EU at last count, this is something else that Vote Leave didn't want people to know.

9. That mythical Ģ350 million will not be spent on the NHS and isn't even available for two years at least in any case, as Gove, Boris, and Farage have been forced to concede.

10. The infamous Farage poster.  For those who don't know, Farage took a poster of refugees heading for the Slovakian border, and manipulated it to make it look as though they were coming to the UK instead, thus suggesting they were EU migrants coming to Britain.  This was extremely offensive, disrespectful, and xenophobic.  He totally misrepresented the facts to make a false case and scare people to vote to leave.

11. Boris has been stabbed in the back by Gove, not Cameron.  Cameron has had nothing to do with that.

Passing to my opinion now, this is what I wrote on the morning of the result, having stayed up all night:

Farage has shown even more of his true colours this morning with his assertion that 'real and decent people voted to leave'.  In other words, he is stating that I, and everyone else who voted to remain in the EU, is not a real of decent person.  This is a truly reprehensible and divisive statement, which will serve to widen the divide between the public, not to heal it.

The most astonishing aspect of the discussion this morning is all this talk from members of the public and Conservative politicians about how shocked they are that Cameron has resigned.  I'm amazed by their naivety.  Cameron was always going to resign immediately if remain lost.  He had staked his career on winning.

I take one small crumb of comfort, in that my own region (North East Hertfordshire) bucked the trend for Conservative held areas by voting to remain, but that's not much consolation.  I did put a lot of effort into educating people locally about the EU, so perhaps it made a bit of a difference, but I don't know.

For me personally, this is the worst thing that has happened in my life time.  I have never felt as bad as I do today about anything.  Yes, the sun still rose this morning and the country is still functioning, but the sense of loss is extremely hard for me to bear.

I feel it that it comes down this.  This result is a victory for fear, ignorance, and prejudice.  It is the most depressing, distressing, and upsetting thing that has ever happened to me, and I think that this country is going to find itself in a very perilous position for a very long time.  The EU is weaker as of today and the lights of peace of prosperity that have united us with continental Europe for so long have just been snuffed out.

I am still going through a bereavement process over this.  Some of you here will doubtless scoff at this, but we all have different feelings and different emotions.  I have always had a European identity and a European ethos.  I do not feel British at all, and, following the result of this referendum and how some people have behaved in the aftermath, I am glad to have this identity.

The very distressing thing for me is that this country has rejected me and all the values I stand for, along with all my EU and non-EU friends who live, work, and study here.  This is not progressive and this is not the country that I know.  This vote has taken the UK back to the 1950s.

Some of you might want to go back to that time, and think it was some sort of paradise, but I know enough about that time and what it was like from my parents and their parents to know that it was an extremely racially intolerant society, where white upper class men were dominant, and women and any foreigners were not equal and were discriminated against.  In the past few days, there have been racially motivated attacks on a Polish cultural centre, leaflets posted in some towns saying hateful and racist things to Polish and Muslim people, people talking in foreign languages on phones have been stared at in the street, and foreign nationals have been told verbally to 'go home because we voted leave', this even happened to a woman from Wales!

This is awful, just absolutely terrible, and is so upsetting that I can barely find the words to comment on it.  Even some who have been voting leave have been interviewed to say that they feel they have made mistake.  Even some Daily Mail readers have suddenly realised the implications of what this could mean for them when their horrid newspaper finally decided to spell out what its readers stand to lose, all after the vote of course.

This country has just taken the worst decision of my life time and I am heartbroken about it.  I don't expect the views of some people here change just because of that, but I would, again, encourage a thorough reading of the facts, because while everyone is entitled to an opinion, nobody is entitled to make things up which are factually incorrect. 

Finally, I will conclude by saying this.  I find some of the language used in this thread disturbingly vitriolic and extremely unpleasant.  Given the age of some of you making such comments, I would expect more level headedness and wisdom to be on show.  I cannot express just how disappointed I am with some of the language that I have seen during the course of this discussion.

[John S]

Sorry you are so sad about how it's turned out Irisado, however the public have chosen from two options and it's now up to the elected representatives to decide how to deal with it.

No amount of mud slinging or weeping over what might have been can change the result of the referendum, which in my opinion was played for an emotional response by all sides. Not sure I heard much truly objective reasoning from anyone in the campaign.

We'll have to see how it all pans out I guess but our system recognises democracy by the majority choice - and for right or wrong a majority have backed the leave side.

I think it's a great pity that the EU has not done a better job of promoting itself to us citizens of member countries over the years. The commission in particular appears much too aloof and self serving, in standard Quango style, and the perceived poor image of it has been allowed to take hold.

We all love to discuss the modus operandi of one Bernie Ecclestone, for good or ill, in F1. Well at least we get more than enough coverage about what he's up to for some open and frank discussions on the merits of his actions.

I simply cannot recall any full, or even small promotional effort  over the role, benefits and decision making process of the EU aimed at the general population. All we've had for years is an unchallenged negative image build up from the media. This leave vote may be a shock to most of us, but surely the EU commission ought to have expected it - seeing how out of touch with member populations they have become.       

     

[Ian]

No comment.

[Ian]

Vitriolic and unpleasant language, where ?

[Irisado]

Not sure I heard much truly objective reasoning from anyone in the campaign.

You didn't, but that's the responsibility of national politicians, as I'll come on to shortly. However, what I will say at this juncture is this.  Remain exaggerated some of their economic claims, and Osborne was very unwise to make silly comments about emergency budgets, but and this is very important, Vote Leave flat out lied about a whole series of issues (see my list of facts above).  That's the crucial difference.

We'll have to see how it all pans out I guess but our system recognises democracy by the majority choice - and for right or wrong a majority have backed the leave side.

True.  There is, however, an important point to consider here.  How legitimate is an outcome in a referendum when people may have voted based on lies and how legitimate is an outcome which was heavily swayed by postal votes which had to be submitted long before the end of a campaign and at a moment when leave was doing particularly well in the polls?  It's food for thought for all us.  Our system of democracy is far from faultless.

I think it's a great pity that the EU has not done a better job of promoting itself to us citizens of member countries over the years. The commission in particular appears much too aloof and self serving, in standard Quango style, and the perceived poor image of it has been allowed to take hold.

Depends on which country you go to.  When I was working in Bucharest last year, there was information about the EU in one of the parks, for example.  There were statues of the heads of all the founders, with placards explaining who they were, what their role was, and how the EU started.  Lots of people were there reading about it all.

Information about the EU is much harder to find in the UK, but that's not the EU's fault.  The national government has to take responsibility for that.

I simply cannot recall any full, or even small promotional effort  over the role, benefits and decision making process of the EU aimed at the general population. All we've had for years is an unchallenged negative image build up from the media. This leave vote may be a shock to most of us, but surely the EU commission ought to have expected it - seeing how out of touch with member populations they have become.     

It was not expected, because all the polls predicted a remain victory in the final few days leading up to the actual vote.  However, I'm sure that all the EU institutions and other member states were nervous, but there was nothing they could do.  Any intervention by them would have been hijacked by the Leave campaign as 'telling us what to do'.  That even happened when Obama gave his speech, where his comment about the 'back of the queue', which was not even in his speech, but was part of a much longer response to a question from an ITV reporter, was deliberately taken out of context by the media.

That leads me on to my next point, and this is where we are in agreement.  The media has fed the people of the UK so many negative, distorted, or downright false news stories about the EU for years, and it has skewed the minds of some.  Boris Johnson didn't help by lying about EU directives on bananas and other fruits and vegetables, many of which were scrapped years ago, and even when they were in existence didn't say what he claimed.  For example, there was never a rule about having to buy bananas in bunches of three.  That just told everyone how often Boris went shopping for groceries.

Incidentally, that last point ought to have been in my list of facts, because that's another lie that vote leave told.

Vitriolic and unpleasant language, where ?

Here's a list (parts in bold):

Sorry Scott, I meant to say that we were led into the beginning of the EU and it was compounded without a choice by the lying toerag Blair.

It has never been proved that Blair lied about Iraq or WMD, I tried to when I was working on my PhD, but the evidence isn't there.  There are all sorts of other things you can say about his foreign policy, and how unwise and ill thought through it was regarding supporting Bush, all of which I would agree with, but to refer to him as you have is exceptionally rude in my opinion.

Don't worry Scott, it'll bounce back even better now we're free of the corrupt, despotic and bloated money grabbing regime in Brussels. 

Despotic?  Really?  Come on Ian, if you cannot see that this is vitriol I'm astonished.  The rest is just factually inaccurate as I've already explained.

And now the knives are out for Boris, pro Cameron Tories are compiling a dossier on his private life to smear him, they should be back in the infant or primary schools they crawled out of.

The part in bold is extremely offensive and over the top.

I've got as far as the 3rd paragraph and I'm disgusted, yet another scumbag invoking Jo Cox, I'll try to read the rest without puking. I'm not having a go at you Scott.

Again, was this necessary?  You can have a forthright opinion, but to be so nasty and aggressive about it strikes me as being completely over the top.

No comment.

I have a question.  Why would you be ashamed to Google what the EU was?

[Ian]

Irisado, list of vitriol I'm accused of.
1/ I mistakenly said Blair instead of Heath, also I never mentioned Iraq or WMD. Blair DID lie in his Election Manifesto with his referendum statement.
2/ Despotic, it is when we are told that whatever Mr Cameron was told can easily be overruled.
3/ Knives are out for Boris. Is it not more vitriolic to defame someone on their private lives ?
3/ I make no apologies for using the word 'Scumbag' In my opinion using the death of what seems to be a fine person for your own own ends is disgusting, 'infant or primary school' in retrospect I should have said RATHOLE.

[John S]

Irisado as you yourself have mentioned you feel rejected, whilst I sympathise with you over that I have to point out that our system here in Britain of a simple majority has existed since before I was born, so one side was going to be disappointed in what was always seen as a close run contest.

Suppose for a moment the remain side had won, would you be still be  questioning the legitimacy of the result?

You also mention that you do not feel British, unfortunately that's in quite a big way what this whole referendum has been about - are we British or European?

It is quite OK to claim Scottish, Irish or even Welsh identities and nationalist aspirations, but as soon as a claim for England, or it now seems Britain, as an identity comes up the strange line 'little Englanders' is usually trotted out.
Why is that do you think?  It sure puzzles me.       

 

[Scott]

Opinions are not necessarily fact based.  They are a mixture of information an individual chooses to accumulate from sources that individual trusts, emotion and upbringing, and knowledge based on past experience.  Anyone can point out facts according to a particular source, but it's not going to change someone's opinion necessarily.  I value Ian's opinions as much as yours or John's or Dare's or Cos's or Jeri's...but in whole I don't share opinions with any of you.  And I'm glad, and so should you be.  Otherwise life would be boring. 

My opinion is that Britain should have stayed in the EU, but am really glad the democracy you have allowed you to choose.