Back to racing - SPA 2016

[J.Clark]

The grid (penalty ridden as it is):
1. Nico Rosberg   GER   Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 46.744s
2. Max Verstappen NED   Red Bull-TAG   1m 46.893s
3. Kimi Raikkonen   FIN   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 46.910s
4. Sebastian Vettel   GER   Ferrari-Ferrari   1m 47.108s
5. Daniel Ricciardo   AUS   Red Bull-TAG   1m 47.216s
6. Sergio Perez   MEX   Force India-Mercedes   1m 47.4072
7. Nico Hulkenberg   GER   Force India-Mercedes   1m 47.543s
8. Valtteri Bottas   FIN   Williams-Mercedes   1m 47.612s
9 Jenson Button   GBR   McLaren-Honda   1m 48.114s
10. Felipe Massa   BRZ   Williams-Mercedes   1m 48.263s

11. Romain Grosjean   FRA   Haas-Ferrari   1m 48.316s
12. Kevin Magnussen   DEN   Renault-Renault   1m 48.485s
13. Esteban Gutierrez   MEX   Haas-Ferrari   1m 48.598s*
14. Jolyon Palmer   GBR   Renault-Renault   1m 48.888s
15. Carlos Sainz Jr   ESP   Toro Rosso-Ferrari   1m 49.038s
16. Pascal Wehrlein   GER   Manor-Mercedes   1m 49.320s

17. Felipe Nasr   BRA   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 48.949s
18. Esteban Ocon   FRA   Manor-Mercedes   1m 49.050s
19. Daniil Kvyat   RUS   Toro Rosso-Ferrari   1m 49.058s
20. Marcus Ericsson   SWE   Sauber-Ferrari   1m 49.071s**
21. Lewis Hamilton   GBR   Mercedes-Mercedes   1m 50.033s****
22. Fernando Alonso   ESP   McLaren-Honda   No time***

all times unofficial

* denotes driver due to take 5-place grid penalty (blocking in FP3)
** denotes driver due to take 10-place grid penalty (power unit change)
*** denotes driver due to take 35-place grid penalty (power unit changes)
**** denotes driver due to take 55-place grid penalty (power unit changes)

Gaming the rules has always been a bit of a factor, but this is ridiculous.  I would think that if someone has penalties great than can be served in a single race, the balance should carry over to the following race, or races.  That would keep Mercedes and Hamilton from doing this.  I don't know if he has done it or not, but the commentators were discussing yesterday that Hamilton could take another engine change for the race, basically without a penalty and it would give him more "new" units he could swap into the car if need be, without penalty.

[Jericoke]

Gaming the rules has always been a bit of a factor, but this is ridiculous.  I would think that if someone has penalties great than can be served in a single race, the balance should carry over to the following race, or races.  That would keep Mercedes and Hamilton from doing this.  I don't know if he has done it or not, but the commentators were discussing yesterday that Hamilton could take another engine change for the race, basically without a penalty and it would give him more "new" units he could swap into the car if need be, without penalty.

I believe the rules were changed when Renault and Honda engines were unreliable, and it would have taken RBR and McLaren completely out of several races in a row, which makes them very unwatchable for fans.

On the contrary though, having Alonso and Hamilton work their way through was very entertaining indeed.

[Scott]

Gaming the rules has always been a bit of a factor, but this is ridiculous.  I would think that if someone has penalties great than can be served in a single race, the balance should carry over to the following race, or races.  That would keep Mercedes and Hamilton from doing this.  I don't know if he has done it or not, but the commentators were discussing yesterday that Hamilton could take another engine change for the race, basically without a penalty and it would give him more "new" units he could swap into the car if need be, without penalty.

I believe the rules were changed when Renault and Honda engines were unreliable, and it would have taken RBR and McLaren completely out of several races in a row, which makes them very unwatchable for fans.

On the contrary though, having Alonso and Hamilton work their way through was very entertaining indeed.

Yeah that's right...if Honda (McLaren) had to serve only 10 place penalties per race, they would still be starting at the back of the grid. 

Again, the engine rules are retarded, and I doubt anyone can prove that they actually save anything.  The teams (manufacturer's) either lose money due to the R&D that goes into an engine (and components) that is supposed to last 5 races, or they lose out on TV money by lost points due to those penalties.  The customers lose because the cost of engines has skyrocketed (especially on per engine pricing) since the new rules came into effect. 

The whole thing is a horrible failure and should be abolished.  Let the haves change their engines as often as they like, but force them to sell engine supplies to the have-nots at Crazy Cos's Barn Breakin' Prices.  Fans happy, teams happy = Bernie happy

[Scott]

So back to the race at hand, here are my comments...

Turn one was primarily Vettel's fault for causing damage to both Ferraris, but MV's for his own damage for trying to bully his way back into second when he had already lost it.  He obviously has never heard the phrase 'Live to fight another day', as in get 'em the next corner, moron.  There is a post race interview with MV that just makes me cringe and yell a little bit at my screen while he's being such a weasel.  Probably won't work outside the UK.  http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10556052/max-verstappen-hits-out-at-kimi-raikkonen-and-sebastian-vettel-after-belgian-gp

Incidentally Max, the floor damage was likely caused by you being mostly on the grass and raking the floor across the kerb on turn one.  Kimi had nothing to do with it.

Kimi might have been able to avoid Vettel's aggressive turn-in if he didn't have Max there on the inside hard on the brakes and with his car maybe a few millimetres from being out of bounds.  I'm still waiting to hear what the Ferrari drivers think of their teammates behaviour on turn one.  Vettel hasn't uttered a word that I've found.

The second incident when MV forced Kimi off track was also controversial because Kimi went off on that corner, but because MV was so aggressively defending it, he also overshot the corner and had all 4 wheels over the white line, but yet Kimi was ordered to let MV back in front (strange that an identical incident between MV and Perez later in the race happened, though MV managed to stay on the track himself, and Perez wasn't told to let MV through - does the FIA have it out for Kimi or something?).  And finally the late move after Eau Rouge was defenceless with Kimi's DRS wide open, sorry Max it's no lie - extremely dangerous.  Max is a massive accident waiting to happen. Charlie Whiting is an idiot for not sending any of the three incidents to the stewards to be investigated.  Black flag might have been extreme, but a drive-through would have opened his eyes a bit.  Whining to Horner (like Cos said in chat, like a teenager telling his Dad how the Clio got pranged) during the red was childish and disingenuous at best...he did it to himself, end of story.  Even Horner admitted the Eau Rouge incident was a late (but fair?? how is late fair?) move.

Magnussen's accident was a result of him being not subtle enough when making a correction at top speed.  Kimi had the same sort of wobble later in the race, but properly massaged the car back onto the track.  Glad KMag is mostly ok, but back to Whiting's incompetence, everyone in the world knew that would be a need for the red flag within a few seconds of seeing the wreckage from overhead meaning there would have to be safety barrier repairs before they could continue.  Whiting?  Calls for a VSC and then SC for an incident at the top of Eau Rouge until someone points out that the barrier is bent out of shape.  Will someone fire this guy?

Alonso and Hamilton finding themselves in 4-5th place after the red was a 'Holy Cow' moment for most of us.  Luck fell into their laps.  Sorry Button's race was ended prematurely. 

Rosberg, Ricciardo and Hamilton had fantastic races and didn't make a mistake or cause anyone any grief all afternoon.  Good for them, and congrats to all for their podiums.

[cosworth151]

I also would have liked to see Wehrlein dinged by the stewards for taking out Button on the start.

I saw an interview with Vettel on NBC. He said that he'd just as soon keep the stewards out of it. He said, "We're not in kindergarten. We don't need to go crying to Charlie. We need to work this out among ourselves."

One of the best F1 ideas I've heard in quite a spell.

[lkjohnson1950]

As long as Max refuses to change his attitude, I don't think they can work it out among themselves. Research has shown that the human brain doesn't reach full maturity, including proper risk management skills, until 21 or 22 years of age. I think we are seeing that with Max.

[J.Clark]

I'm with Scott on the turn one incident - Vettel caused it and Max, if he had a brain, would have avoided it completely by not trying to force his way back into a position he had clearly lost.

The red flag was a huge help to Hamilton, as it bunched up the field early in the race, allowing him to pass cars more quickly, not having to chase them down one by one, taking more laps off of the available time.  Had it not been for the red flag, I think Hamilton would have been in the points, but likely only around 5th or 6th.

Best opening laps had to go to Massa, coming from 10th on the grid up to 4th, making passes where they aren't usually made.  I think something must have failed on his car near the end, or perhaps his tires just gave out, but it was quite exciting in the first half of the race.

[Irisado]

I would say that Vettel and Verstappen both made a mess of La Source.  Verstappen was off the track having committed too much, but he would have got away with it had Vettel not turned in way too aggressively on Raikkonen.  Surprisingly poor spatial awareness from Vettel, given that he's supposed to be 'such a great driver', but having seen him make quite a few mistakes over the years when he is not leading I sort of expected it in some ways.  I was thinking during the build up to the race that Verstappen and the two Ferraris might make contact at the first corner.

The only incident during the race which warranted investigation in my view was Verstappen moving over late to block Raikkonen.  That was too late a move in my opinion, but I still don't think that it was blatant enough to penalise him for.  A warning, definitely, and a point or two on his licence, but a drive through, no.  Someone should take him on one side and suggest that he calms down during races though, otherwise they will give him a penalty before the year is out, and it will be a substantial one.  As for Werhlein, that was just a misjudgement, which was completely undeserving of any penalty or investigation.

I really don't think that criticising Charlie Whiting so much is really on.  Also, statements of the sort 'everybody knows x' are always false, because it's impossible to know what everyone thinks.  Yes, a red flag was needed, and I also would have called for it sooner, but perhaps they were hoping they could repair the barrier under safety car conditions.  They did red flag the 2001 race much more quickly when Burti had that massive shunt at Blanchimont after colliding with Irvine, but that was because he was trapped in his car after the tyres covered the cockpit, so the circumstances were different.

The race, for the first twenty or so laps was quite a lively affair, but as so often is the case it ran out of steam once it became clear that Rosberg, Ricciardo, and Hamilton would be too far apart once all the pit stops were completed to race each other.  It was a great result for Hamilton though, considering his starting position, so no wonder he was pleased.

Alonso drove a great race too, having some luck to help him out for the first time all weekend, while Force India really look as though they have overtaken Williams on pace for the moment at least.

Finally, Magnussen's crash really wasn't that bad.  Having seen Villeneuve crash twice at Eau Rouge during qualifying on low fuel (1998 and 1999) when there was gravel there, and Zonta crash the sister BAR very heavily in the same place in 1999, I was confident Magnussen would be okay.  We've got so used to not seeing drivers make mistakes any more, because the current cars cannot be pushed to the same extent as previous machines in the pre-Pirelli era that I think that the fact he made a big enough mistake to crash is what truly caught people by surprise.  That says everything about what is wrong with the current design of F1 car and tyre, but hopefully they'll rectify some of this in 2017.

[Scott]

Over the past two years, I believe Charlie Whiting has lost his objectivity and much of his judgement to put it mildly, so considering he can change the outcome of an F1 race or safety of an F1 driver more than any human on earth, I think when he has lost his game, then it is time for him to go.

I don't think there were very many of us who, once they saw the overhead shot of the damage to the barrier, would have thought the race could continue without some sort of repair, and as Ali pointed out, the pressure was obviously on to restart the race, so they didn't even complete the repair. 

Pushing Raikkonen off the track so aggressively that caused MV to also go off track certainly warranted investigation.  Requiring Kimi to give the place back was again, poor judgement.

[lkjohnson1950]

Whiting may be past his sell by date, but who replaces him? Indycar found a few years ago that experienced Race Directors are hard to come by. It is truly a thankless job, and several people Indycar tried to recruit said "No Thanks"

[cosworth151]

I wonder how much of Charlie's action (and inaction) is dictated by Bernie and Jean Todt. In any case, I agree with Lonny about the troubles with trying to find a replacement.

[Scott]

I would vote Ali in a second.  Out competence him in a second.

[Irisado]

Over the past two years, I believe Charlie Whiting has lost his objectivity and much of his judgement to put it mildly, so considering he can change the outcome of an F1 race or safety of an F1 driver more than any human on earth, I think when he has lost his game, then it is time for him to go.

I don't think there were very many of us who, once they saw the overhead shot of the damage to the barrier, would have thought the race could continue without some sort of repair, and as Ali pointed out, the pressure was obviously on to restart the race, so they didn't even complete the repair. 

Pushing Raikkonen off the track so aggressively that caused MV to also go off track certainly warranted investigation.  Requiring Kimi to give the place back was again, poor judgement.

See, if you'd put it like this before, I wouldn't have disagreed anywhere near as strongly, because I do understand where you're coming from.  I don't believe that Whiting has lost his touch as much as you say, but I do concur that he has made some strange calls in recent years, notably leaving the safety car out for too long whenever there's a drop of rain.

Having read more about the Verstappen/Raikkonen instead and coming towards your point of view.  I still maintain that  it's best for the drivers to try to deal with this during the briefing at Monza, rather than to have penalties issued though.  However, if Verstappen pulls stunts like that during the race at Monza, a penalty will be necessary in my view.

I would vote Ali in a second.  Out competence him in a second.

Ali would be miles ahead of all of us and would get my vote too .