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Author Topic: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule  (Read 602 times)

Offline Robem64



"I'm not a pessimist, I'm an optimist with experience"

Offline cosworth151

Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 03:08:00 PM »
  • Publish
  • It definitely shouldn't apply to cars racing for position. I'd say make it advisory only - just to let the slower car know that a faster car is coming up from behind.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline Irisado

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #2 on: September 29, 2018, 11:50:43 AM »
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  • A difficult one because it is currently rather too harsh, in my opinion, on the drivers being lapped, however, there is always a danger that someone could drive like René Arnoux did at the 1989 Monaco Grand Prix and get away with it.  It is, therefore, a very delicate balancing act.
    Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

    Offline Calman

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #3 on: December 01, 2018, 08:08:21 PM »
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  • Drivers will still complain about the blue flag system well into 2019, but as we already know, Charlie Whiting is unlikely to change a single thing about them in the foreseeable future.   So, it all comes down to the design of the cars, allowing them to follow closer and overtake "cleaner" (of course, DRS makes this stupidly simple in certain zones on certain tracks already).

    Best Regards,
    Cal :)
    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline Jericoke

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 12:31:43 PM »
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  • Drivers will still complain about the blue flag system well into 2019, but as we already know, Charlie Whiting is unlikely to change a single thing about them in the foreseeable future.   So, it all comes down to the design of the cars, allowing them to follow closer and overtake "cleaner" (of course, DRS makes this stupidly simple in certain zones on certain tracks already).

    Best Regards,
    Cal :)

    One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #5 on: December 04, 2018, 09:48:11 PM »
  • Publish

  • One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?

    Good point, never thought of that one before :D
    Percussus resurgio
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    Offline Calman

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 10:00:20 PM »
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  • DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?

    It's the dark side of F1, the side we are not supposed to question (in a similar vein to "why does the toast always land butter side down?")   :D

    Best Regards,
    Cal :)
    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 04:41:02 PM »
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  • Jeri's post got me to thinking, too. I looked up the rule in the FIA's F1 Sporting Regulations, Section 21.5b, second paragraph.   (Italics are mine):

    Quote
    The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics (see Article 8.2 of the F1 Technical Regulations) that it is enabled. It will be enabled, and may only be used by the driver, if he is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined detection points around each circuit.

    It doesn't actually specify if it refers to the next car on track or the next car in timing & scoring. I'd love to see some team file a protest over it.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
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    Offline John S

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    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 06:22:19 PM »
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  • One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?


    Are you referring to the fact the backmarker is 90secs behind the leader, Jeri?  :confused: 
    If so that's irrelevant for DRS during overtaking, unless you are trying one of them devious rule interpretations favoured by F1 designers.  :D

    Personally I haven't noticed front runners lapping cars getting DRS outside the rule, leading cars getting blue flags assisting their progress are usually a good deal faster than the car ahead so approach at quite a speed.
       
    Drivers can't use DRS unless signal to dash/steering wheel allows it and rule is quite clear.

    Sometimes the 3 blue flags rule when slower cars must jump out of way can give the appearance front runners gain DRS unfairly. Because the other car slows and moves offline the pass occurs between the timing line and the activation point, effectively they're using DRS after the pass - but it's still legal.

    The oddity I find is when 2 or 3 cars ahead in lapping range get DRS as well as the front runner because they are under 1sec behind someone they are racing for place.


    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

    Offline Calman

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 08:12:12 PM »
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  • I'm trying to cast my mind back a race or two, where DRS played a spectacular part in Nico Hulkenberg gaining the advantage in a battle with another car (or two) while someone like Hamilton was trying to get past.  I think there was a lot going on at once (DRS and Blue Flags) and Nico came out on top.    As I say, I am not clear on the exact situation, but for once, I would say that DRS and Blue Flags combined, made good viewing in that segment of the race.

    Best Regards,
    Cal :)
    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 11:01:19 PM »
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  • One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?


    Are you referring to the fact the backmarker is 90secs behind the leader, Jeri?  :confused: 
    If so that's irrelevant for DRS during overtaking, unless you are trying one of them devious rule interpretations favoured by F1 designers.  :D

    I don't think Jeri is saying using DRS on a to-be-lapped car is against the rules, rather that the fact it's within the rules is a bit strange given that they are only physically near each other, and not nearby in racing terms.
    Percussus resurgio
    @lacanta (Twitter)
    http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

    Offline Jericoke

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #11 on: December 07, 2018, 03:15:06 AM »
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  • One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?


    Are you referring to the fact the backmarker is 90secs behind the leader, Jeri?  :confused: 
    If so that's irrelevant for DRS during overtaking, unless you are trying one of them devious rule interpretations favoured by F1 designers.  :D

    I don't think Jeri is saying using DRS on a to-be-lapped car is against the rules, rather that the fact it's within the rules is a bit strange given that they are only physically near each other, and not nearby in racing terms.

    Exactly, the DRS is intended to help cars pass in close racing, not let the leaders blow by lapped cars.  There's no way a leading car needs a blue flag AND DRS to pass a backmarker!  One or the other should be more than enough.

    Offline Calman

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 05:20:56 AM »
  • Publish
  • One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?


    Are you referring to the fact the backmarker is 90secs behind the leader, Jeri?  :confused: 
    If so that's irrelevant for DRS during overtaking, unless you are trying one of them devious rule interpretations favoured by F1 designers.  :D

    I don't think Jeri is saying using DRS on a to-be-lapped car is against the rules, rather that the fact it's within the rules is a bit strange given that they are only physically near each other, and not nearby in racing terms.

    Exactly, the DRS is intended to help cars pass in close racing, not let the leaders blow by lapped cars.  There's no way a leading car needs a blue flag AND DRS to pass a backmarker!  One or the other should be more than enough.

    As I see it, DRS is seen as a reward for "getting close" to the car in front, so as you say, by all means, throw a blue flag, but there is no need for DRS assistance for a leader bumping a lapped car out of the way - and gaining an obvious advantage "at that time" to the second place car on the track.

    Best Regards,
    Cal :)
    Anyone Have A Decent Pen?

    Offline John S

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    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 10:56:11 AM »
  • Publish
  • One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?


    Are you referring to the fact the backmarker is 90secs behind the leader, Jeri?  :confused: 
    If so that's irrelevant for DRS during overtaking, unless you are trying one of them devious rule interpretations favoured by F1 designers.  :D

    I don't think Jeri is saying using DRS on a to-be-lapped car is against the rules, rather that the fact it's within the rules is a bit strange given that they are only physically near each other, and not nearby in racing terms.

    Exactly, the DRS is intended to help cars pass in close racing, not let the leaders blow by lapped cars.  There's no way a leading car needs a blue flag AND DRS to pass a backmarker!  One or the other should be more than enough.

    Surely the salient point here is the car attempting to lap is ahead by 90secs not behind.

    This 90secs is the distance the about to be lapped car is behind the leader. No stipulation is made in the Regs about the status of car in front for DRS to apply.

    The 1sec rule falls on the following car which is in reality 90secs ahead - not behind - which is why DRS will activate once the lapping car gets within the 1sec at the detection zone.

    In fact it could be argued that the front runners approaching back markers will always get DRS, even when over 1sec behind on the road, as they are always at a plus deficit to any car they are trying to lap.  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy: 

    Rather than impeding the front runners I see a case in the wording of the Regs to challenge use of DRS from cars that are seeking to unlap themselves. The backmarker will always be more than 1sec behind the car ahead, even when touching the back of it, so should DRS apply?
     - Could save Max from future embarrassment.  :D 

    I agree it's probably overkill to give to give Blue flags and DRS to the front runners, but I can't see the big teams agreeing to a rule change on blue flags or DRS.  :(
    « Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 11:02:12 AM by John S »
    Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

    Offline Jericoke

    Re: Haas - scrap the blue flag rule
    « Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 02:57:29 PM »
  • Publish
  • One thing I always found funny about the blue flag/drs rules was that a leading car was entitled to use DRS to pass a lapped car.  DRS is supposed to be for cars that are within one second... why does it work on a car that is at least 90 seconds behind?


    Are you referring to the fact the backmarker is 90secs behind the leader, Jeri?  :confused: 
    If so that's irrelevant for DRS during overtaking, unless you are trying one of them devious rule interpretations favoured by F1 designers.  :D

    I don't think Jeri is saying using DRS on a to-be-lapped car is against the rules, rather that the fact it's within the rules is a bit strange given that they are only physically near each other, and not nearby in racing terms.

    Exactly, the DRS is intended to help cars pass in close racing, not let the leaders blow by lapped cars.  There's no way a leading car needs a blue flag AND DRS to pass a backmarker!  One or the other should be more than enough.

    Surely the salient point here is the car attempting to lap is ahead by 90secs not behind.

    This 90secs is the distance the about to be lapped car is behind the leader. No stipulation is made in the Regs about the status of car in front for DRS to apply.

    The 1sec rule falls on the following car which is in reality 90secs ahead - not behind - which is why DRS will activate once the lapping car gets within the 1sec at the detection zone.

    In fact it could be argued that the front runners approaching back markers will always get DRS, even when over 1sec behind on the road, as they are always at a plus deficit to any car they are trying to lap.  :crazy:  :crazy:  :crazy: 

    Rather than impeding the front runners I see a case in the wording of the Regs to challenge use of DRS from cars that are seeking to unlap themselves. The backmarker will always be more than 1sec behind the car ahead, even when touching the back of it, so should DRS apply?
     - Could save Max from future embarrassment.  :D 

    I agree it's probably overkill to give to give Blue flags and DRS to the front runners, but I can't see the big teams agreeing to a rule change on blue flags or DRS.  :(

    I understand how it works:  if a following car is within one second of the leading car, regardless of their position, the following car is entitled to DRS.

    I'm disagreeing with if it SHOULD work that way.  It provides a disadvantage to cars that have fallen behind, even if they are quicker than the leader (e.g., fresh tires).  It also provides a disadvantage to cars attempting to pass a leading car ahead of them, which is what DRS was intended to help.  Essentially DRS can be used to make passing more difficult, if the leaders are in traffic.  While I'm aware some people dislike DRS as a whole, I think fixing this one aspect of it (i.e., make it so it can only be used to pass for position/unlapping) will make it more interesting, which is the purpose.