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Author Topic: Monza  (Read 927 times)

Online cosworth151

Re: Monza
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2019, 03:46:13 PM »
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    A Ferrari leading at Monza, is never going to get even a 5s penalty in my opinion.

    We were talking about that in the Chat Room when it happened. I said that if the stewards would have hit a Ferrari in P1 at Monza   with a penalty, they might not get out of there alive.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
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    Online cosworth151

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #16 on: September 09, 2019, 03:57:08 PM »
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  • The new F1 race director Michael Masi says to expect more black & white "warning flags" in the coming weeks:

    https://autoweek.com/article/formula-one/formula-1-race-director-explains-driving-standards-flag
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline lkjohnson1950

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #17 on: September 09, 2019, 06:13:57 PM »
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  • Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?
    Lonny

    Offline monty

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    Re: Monza
    « Reply #18 on: September 10, 2019, 11:16:29 AM »
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    Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?
    Oh don't do this to me - it will now seem like I am defending Lewis; but yes - it is completely different. Lewis (and many other drivers) often squeeze cars on the outside of the corner as they exit. This is a mixture of normal racing practice; the laws of physics and of course a bit of 'hard driving'. If someone tries to overtake on the outside of the corner they know that unless they are at least two thirds in front as they exit the corner the other car 'has the corner' because unless the other driver brakes his car will naturally run out to the very edge of the track (the normal racing line). This is very different to weaving all over the track to deter an overtake and then looking in your mirror, seeing that a car is clearly going to overtake and deliberately turning your car into them so they run out of track. This is dangerous and if it continues to be allowed there will never be any overtaking!

    Offline monty

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    Re: Monza
    « Reply #19 on: September 10, 2019, 01:36:36 PM »
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  • Interesting to see a recent F1 driver's point of view:-
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #20 on: September 10, 2019, 04:22:54 PM »
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  • https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145847/stewards-urge-fia-to-find-rapid-fix-for-q3-queues

    I'm not sure I would put the blame on those three...anyone behind them could have passed and made it in plenty of time.  Sainz actually made it on to the final lap, so he technically did nothing wrong.

    Apparently those three admitted the charge of going slowly to impede other people's laps, so the stewards didn't have much choice, since the other six, at least, were only going slowly in the hope of benefitting themselves (or, in at least one and probably some other cases, to benefit themselves and their team-mate). That they only got reprimands makes me think nobody would have got a penalty of any description if everyone had simply said, "Well, we thought this was the best way to get a good lap for ourselves and we were obviously wrong..."

    But I don't understand why there aren't more complaints about the incident where Leclerc cut the chicane and the changed position at least twice in the run up to the next corner. Surely cutting the chicane should have meant he had to let Hamilton past. But then going on to weave all over the track is clearly against the rules.

    I was in an unhappy household on Sunday for precisely this reason. Specifically, because Leclerc had a black-and-white flag. I suspect a lot of the people on Twitter and Tumblr have forgotten what, exactly, a black-and-white flag means. Maybe the stewards had too, for it had been written on the flag's introduction last week that they were still experimenting on how the black-and-white flag was to be interpreted.

    I'm sure nobody here needs to be told that a black-and-white flag is a warning flag, and means "any further offences will attract a sporting penalty". I have to admit that I wasn't sure a penalty (even of the black-and-white flag variety) was warranted for the original incident given precedent, but he was given one and even a 5-second time penalty (for monty would probably advocate) would have been within precedent. And unlike the 5-second penalty, a black-and-white flag necessarily affects how future incidents are seen, including ones that aren't the same type of offence. Which means that incidents that normally would be noted and only brought into play if accumulated suddenly become penalty-worthy.

    Which was exactly what we all expected to happen here. A single bout of weaving or chicane-skipping would not, in isolation be a penalty. Either (let alone both), following a black-and-white flag, would be a penalty in any other series (except one that specifies separate penalty-counting systems for different types of offence), and would have been a penalty in the previous system of black-and-white flag usage in F1. Even a token 5-second penalty for weaving would have worked (given the weaving, the "let Hamilton pass and carry on" option wasn't available, for the same reason that investigating Vettel for dangerous rejoining in Canada prevented it), and with the speed of the hard tyres, I think Leclerc might have won the race anyway. Which would have pleased everyone in my house, and probably got the stewards off the hook if they were worried about the home crowd villifying them afterwards.

    But that's not how it was handled. Instead, the whole thing got swept under the carpet - which is exactly what a black-and-white flag is supposed to prevent, in instances where it doesn't turn the recipient into a model driver for the rest of the race (and even Charles admitted he'd made errors post-race).

    The kicker was when they announced a (quickly dropped) investigation for a "missed apex". I had no idea they did understatement-based humour in Italy, since to me it seemed like Leclerc missed the first chicane's apex by half a postcode...

    Which is why, even though I'm happy my favourite driver got the experience he had at the end of the race, part of me still feels like Bottas won Monza fair and square.

    It was a good F1 race.  Monza certainly puts on a good stage, and the players stepped up.

    Monza and Spa both show you don't need 'tight twisty bits' to put on a good race. 

    You are absolutely right  :D

    Percussus resurgio
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    Online cosworth151

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #21 on: September 10, 2019, 07:28:07 PM »
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  • I wonder if the stewards feel handcuffed by the black & white flag. It hasn't seen much use in quite some time. Maybe they feel that the flag is the Race Director's way of saying "case closed." Masi needs to clear the air & issue a official statement that the flag in no way limits the stewards' authority to issue penalties.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline lkjohnson1950

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #22 on: September 10, 2019, 07:50:42 PM »
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    Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?
    Oh don't do this to me - it will now seem like I am defending Lewis; but yes - it is completely different. Lewis (and many other drivers) often squeeze cars on the outside of the corner as they exit. This is a mixture of normal racing practice; the laws of physics and of course a bit of 'hard driving'. If someone tries to overtake on the outside of the corner they know that unless they are at least two thirds in front as they exit the corner the other car 'has the corner' because unless the other driver brakes his car will naturally run out to the very edge of the track (the normal racing line). This is very different to weaving all over the track to deter an overtake and then looking in your mirror, seeing that a car is clearly going to overtake and deliberately turning your car into them so they run out of track. This is dangerous and if it continues to be allowed there will never be any overtaking!

    So everything would be OK if Le Clerc had "taken the racing line" and forced Lewis off between the 2 corners of the chicane?
    Lonny

    Offline monty

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    Re: Monza
    « Reply #23 on: September 11, 2019, 09:09:15 AM »
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  • So everything would be OK if Le Clerc had "taken the racing line" and forced Lewis off between the 2 corners of the chicane?
    I have seen many of your posts so I know you are being deliberately obtuse  ;) The problem with Leclerc's driving was that he was in front of Hamilton and was deliberately (and dangerously) stopping Hamilton from overtaking by forcing him off the track. Only Ferrari/Leclerc fans are supporting his driving - just about everyone else agrees it was unacceptable - including the stewards. The problem is that he wasn't penalised which means others will try the same tactics in the future.
    As ever - Ali provides a very clear and well thought out summary!

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #24 on: September 11, 2019, 03:09:27 PM »
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  • I wonder if the stewards feel handcuffed by the black & white flag. It hasn't seen much use in quite some time. Maybe they feel that the flag is the Race Director's way of saying "case closed."

    The stewards issue it as an alternative to "no action" or penalties, so it is "case closed". Or more strictly, "case closed pending further infractions". And if the last three words aren't used, no point bothering with the black-and-white flag in the first place... ...which may be why it was retired nearly a decade ago.
    Percussus resurgio
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    Offline lkjohnson1950

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #25 on: September 11, 2019, 03:25:43 PM »
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  • I am not trying to be obtuse. Le Clerc should have been penalized. BUT I cannot wrap my poor old brain around the idea that it's OK to force a driver off the track at some places but not at others. Le Clerc escaping penalties at Monza seems just as fair as Max escaping in Austria. Or Max bobbing and weaving practically everywhere. You either have to leave a rival racing room or you don't. Where you are on the track shouldn't matter.
    Lonny

    Online cosworth151

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #26 on: September 11, 2019, 03:32:17 PM »
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  • I think the issue is that the rules prohibit a driver making a move under braking.

    Thanks, Ali. I wasn't sure if the decision to use the flag rested with the stewards or the race director.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline rmassart

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #27 on: September 11, 2019, 07:37:04 PM »
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  • Is there a difference between Le Clerc crowding Lewis at the entrance to a curve and Lewis running any number of drivers off the track at the exits of corners?

    In my opinion, yes.  For one, it could be argued that Hamilton was actually on the racing line when leclerc pushed him wide.

    But for me more importantly, is the trajectory. In exiting a corner you are pulling away from the guy behind, whereas in breaking, you are effectively closing in on him.  The impact in the latter will always be worse and more dangerous than the former.

    Offline Willy

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    Re: Monza
    « Reply #28 on: September 18, 2019, 09:16:26 PM »
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  • Spa and then Monza....the best two tracks in F1.
    Oh, wait.....Monaco still holds a place in my heart.

    Then comes Singapore......snore.
    A total spectacle and fabricated light show imagined by Bernie. Why is this still on the calendar?

    Offline Alianora La Canta

    Re: Monza
    « Reply #29 on: September 19, 2019, 07:18:21 AM »
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  • Because Singapore pays lots of money?
    Percussus resurgio
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