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Poll

Would you be in favour of reverse grids?

Yes everywhere.
Yes at some circuits.
No its not for me.
If this happens I'm off.

Author Topic: Reverse grids?  (Read 8701 times)

Offline Andy B

Reverse grids?
« on: September 19, 2019, 08:10:29 AM »
I'm not making it up!
https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/9521/why-f1-teams-should-back-the-reversed-grid-revolution

Why would they turn F1 into a farce especially after qualifying in Italy what would go on to get yourself further up the grid when reversed?
When I started watching F1 it was about the fastest cars and the skill of the drivers not reverse grids and flappy rear wings.
I'm afraid its bring back Bernie and get rid of Liberty.


Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline rmassart

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2019, 12:29:06 PM »
I can't read the article, so I don't know what incentive the teams would have to qualify "last" so to speak. Points would have to be close to those gained for winning the actual race, but that would make the race far less important. And the tactics would be stupid. You'd have teams aiming to be 10th in qualifying or something like that.

If they want go in this direction, just scrap qualifying and base the starting grid on the reverse finishing order  in the previous race!

But I agree with your sentiment. F1 should be about the fastest car/driver combination winning. Full stop. If they want to equalise things they can do this in the technical regulations by standardising components far more, not by gimmicks.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2019, 04:39:11 PM »
Formula One has changed dramatically.

It's no longer a handful of garagistas and a gentlemen racer having some fun.

The cars are super reliable, and computer designed to the nanometer, the drivers are as fit as any athlete on the planet, and have simulated hundreds of laps before even showing up at the track.

If you put the fastest driver/car at the front, they're very likely going to win, and it's not going to encourage passing.  The sport is basically designed to create a procession.  NOW, if you're a fan of design and technical driving, the sport is at its pinnacle.  I love seeing the engineers push the rules, or drivers shave fractions of a second by cutting a curb or braking late.

So, we can go back to hand made cars and leave computers out of it.  Let the drivers only experience the track on the race weekend.  That will create variability, suspense and surprise.

Or we can invert the grid, put the fast cars at the back, watch the top teams back rules that encourage passing and put on a spectacle.

I know I've mentioned the NFL before, but... they're the best sport at making money.  They're aware that people want to watch good games, and don't give a **** about tradition.  They create a schedule to ensure that games are interesting:  strong teams play strong teams, weak teams play weak teams, so the games themselves are close and entertaining.

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2019, 05:58:56 PM »
Except for the Miami Dolphins!   :DD :DD
Lonny

Offline Andy B

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2019, 10:35:16 PM »

Or we can invert the grid, put the fast cars at the back, watch the top teams back rules that encourage passing and put on a spectacle.


Tell me how that works at Monaco, Baku, Singapore and all the tracks that overtaking is a problem it would falsify the result and probably create carnage in the process.
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Jericoke

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2019, 05:12:43 PM »

Or we can invert the grid, put the fast cars at the back, watch the top teams back rules that encourage passing and put on a spectacle.


Tell me how that works at Monaco, Baku, Singapore and all the tracks that overtaking is a problem it would falsify the result and probably create carnage in the process.

Seems fairly trivial to me.  Ferrari with their famous veto and ambition to win will ensure that the rules favour cars at the back cutting through the field.  Narrower cars perhaps.  Wider racing lines.  Suspension and wings that can with stand a few bumps.

If you want to get crazy... maybe 'double chicanes':  two identical racing lines, one swerving left, one swerving right, a faster car can overtake by taking a completely different path.

Offline Andy B

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2019, 01:08:10 AM »
It seems you want Carnage Jeri!
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline John S

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Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2019, 10:00:22 AM »
Not sure about reverse grids at all races, that could be tricky as already suggested at places like Monaco.

However the current trend towards more and more restrictions on what, where and how aero can be added to cars, more standard parts and less budget means there'll be even less scope for new original thought and unique engineering than we've seen in the last few years; and that's not exactly been a great deal.

This being the case something has to change to keep F1 as the darling premier motorsport, more mixed up podiums from reverse grids might be an answer.

Having said all that I rather think the only reverse grids we might actually see next year will be occasional trials of Sprint races on Saturdays. Liberty are desperate to find more interest for casual viewers, and fill up stadia for race promoters.

Having been at Silverstone on 4 Saturdays of F1 races in the last 10 years (only one Sunday race - but that's another story), I found it hard to keep up with how practice and Quali was progressing, and I'm well versed in F1 Quali method. Races are much easier to follow at trackside so Sprint races - reverse grid or not - may hold a key to better attendance at some tracks, and who knows this might be a way of getting more people into the F1 habit.   
« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 10:04:20 AM by John S »
Racing is Life - everything else is just....waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Willy

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2019, 07:08:05 PM »
Go back to one lap quaili.
Scrap driver aids such as computer-aided starts etc. The man in the race-seat should be making decisions on shifting, braking etc.
Scrap aero and only allow downforce.
Allow the track promoters to keep on-track advertising revenue and all gate receipts.
Reduce how much Liberty charges the tracks to help out the venues and pay for upgrades for safety and general fan enjoyment.

Offline Andy B

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2019, 11:11:45 PM »
Go back to one lap quaili.
Scrap driver aids such as computer-aided starts etc. The man in the race-seat should be making decisions on shifting, braking etc.
Scrap aero and only allow downforce.
Allow the track promoters to keep on-track advertising revenue and all gate receipts.
Reduce how much Liberty charges the tracks to help out the venues and pay for upgrades for safety and general fan enjoyment.

Several things wrong here Willy!
One lap qualifying was a turn off and the most boring trial ever seen.
There is already limitations on starts such as no launch control so the driver has more input but there is still some wizardry going on its the policing of it that's the issue.
Scrap aero and only allow downforce." These are one and the same but I assume you mean only allow mechanical grip which would make the cars so slow.
Liberty are in it for the money so the change in any dramatic way to how the circuits make their money is unlikely to happen.
Investment at some circuits is poor Germany being a prime example but with so many willing to join in they'll be lucky to get some help.
If anyone knows the answers to F1's problems they could become very rich!

Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline cosworth151

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2019, 08:35:31 PM »
The first thing that would happen is everybody sandbagging in quali.

I raced on many dirt ovals that had reverse starting. Most would decide how many positions to reverse (usually 2 to 9) by a blind draw before the start of the feature race. Can anybody picture Chase Carey and Michael Masi walking on to the stating line at Monaco, shaking up a little plastic bottle of pool (snooker) dice & dumping one out?
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2019, 09:44:30 PM »
Reverse grids are fine for some series - ones that aren't about finding the best car/driver competition in the world, and aren't full of people who will manipulate everything in sight to their advantage. Since F1 features both, it's not a good thing to apply here. Otherwise we'll be getting repeats of Silverstone 2004 (where people threw qualifying 1 in the hope of benefitting in a qualifying 2 where rain was predicted for the faster half of running. In the event, Silverstone had the last laugh because qualifying 2 was dry and people started about where qualifying 1 suggested they would be - minus a few places for the Minardi who had provisional pole in the slowest car at the place).
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Irisado

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2019, 09:59:06 AM »
Reverse grids are, along with the infamous drivers changing teams every weekend proposal, the two worst ideas ever dreamt up for Formula 1.  Formula 1 is about purity of speed.  Qualifying is all about finding out who is the fastest on low fuel, in a pressurised time situation, at any given circuit.  It is not about tinkering with the starting order to try to artificially spice up the racing.  We already have enough problems with determining the grid with all these ill conceived engine and gearbox penalties, so let's not make this even more daft by implementing reverse grids.

If they want to fix Formula 1, they need to look at when it was exciting and revert back to how the rules and cars used to be.  In essence, everything that has been changed during the last ten years has not worked.  DRS, Pirelli tyres, turbo engines, sanitised circuits, virtual safety cars, excessive use of the safety car, and ultra reliable cars have all, to varying degrees, made the sport boring, predictable, and lacking those edge of the seat moments that used characterise it.  Even Murray Walker couldn't make most of these dull races sound interesting.  They also need to get rid of all the computer game style graphics and bring back a sensible car numbering system.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Offline Scott

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2019, 06:59:44 PM »
I don’t think anyone is interested in the cost of turning the clock back.  It would be hundreds of millions to do it and the manufacturers would be gone in a second.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Irisado

Re: Reverse grids?
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2019, 11:56:05 PM »
Manufacters should only be allowed to supply engines and not run teams (Ferrari can be an exception because they always have been) because manufacturers are only interested in profits and selling road cars at the end of the day and they will come and go from Formula 1 as they please according to sales and board decisions.  Their domineering presence is one of the reasons that Formula 1 is in such a sorry state, so I'd rather get rid of them and revert back to independent teams.
Soņando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

 


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