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Author Topic: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point  (Read 636 times)

Offline monty

Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« on: August 10, 2020, 01:34:33 PM »
How is everyone else feeling about this?
I hate the fact that 'copying' is effectively allowed in F1 - but it is.
IMHO Racing Point copied in such an open way that nobody should now be complaining. Yes of course I understand that brake ducts have now become listed parts but they knew the design in 2019 so they couldn't forget what they had already learnt. In fact even the FIA accept that technically, Racing Point did nothing wrong, but they have applied this crazy ruling that under the sporting regulations they will get reprimanded for using a copied part because it has become listed. Clearly this is a belated attempt to discourage copying but it makes no sense. The Haas car was a Ferrari - this was only allowed because, at the time of giving them the design data, Ferrari were not a competitor (because Haas were not in F1).The Alpha Tauri uses loads of Intellectual Property from the Red Bull - accepted because the information is shared at 'owner' level and almost impossible for FIA to stop. As Lawrence Stoll has said - if Racing Point were at the back of the field nobody would even mention it!
F1 needs to decide if they want to accept the massive costs involved in insisting that every entrant is a true constructor or if they are going to allow customer cars.



Online cosworth151

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2020, 01:55:11 PM »
Haas's cars have always been built in conjunction with Dallara.

https://www.dallara.it/en/consultancy/Racing
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline John S

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2020, 03:23:55 PM »
Agreed Monty it's being made into a tsunami in a teacup.

From what I can make of it Renault felt aggrieved when RP challenged their car after a race last year and got them DSQ'd. Renault knew the info for the protest had come from an employee who left and went to RP.

Seeking revenge Renault protested the RP 'Merc lookalike' using info supplied by another employee who moved in the other direction, note how specific the protest was to brake ducts. Not sure if Renault hoped to succeed beyond possibly getting RP thrown out of the Styrian GP.

As things now stand it might have been the best solution for everyone to let Styrian GP Stewards rule on it one way or the other. If no foul I reckon it would have faded away, and if DSQ'd RP would have raced on under appeal in Hungary and changed ducts by Brit GP.  However Stewards/FIA seem to have been caught wrongfooted by not dealing with it immediately so the whole thing has turned into a complete horse's arse full of worms, so to speak.  :D

Biggest surprise to me was Sky TV pundits being caught not knowing the difference between tech reg and sporting reg punishments. Ex drivers, and it's mainly them used on Sky have very limited knowledge of the constructors regs, so why let them just pontificate endlessly about it when they were just peddling disinformation in the main. Where are the likes of Garry Anderson or Pat Symonds when you need clarity and rational explanations.  :crazy:

Not sure the gang now formed to challenge RP on appeal expect it to succeed on merit, but are simply doing what the Piranha always does, applying pressure almost to the point of making this into an elongated fox hunt.

The Sporting Regs wording seems so loose, almost to point of incredulity, that RP will probably get fine & points loss overturned. A main indicator to this, IMHO, is FIA feeling need to substantially rewrite the rules around what can or can't be copied ahead of next season.
- OH and good luck with that Nicholas!!!  :P 

 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 03:26:09 PM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2020, 07:13:16 PM »
Certainly the 'pushing the rules' and 'catching your opponent pushing the rules' are as old as the sport itself, and is just as much a part of any season as risky passes and subtle blocks during qualifying.

I'd chalk this up to the same dispensation Brawn had:  it's wrong, but it's too late to really do anything about it, so we'll allow it.

Offline Andy B

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2020, 02:15:45 AM »
The problem as I see it is that pre-season the FIA inspected RP over several days and confirmed the car was legal then after a complaint by Renault the Stewards got involved and declared the brake ducts were illegal.
This is somewhat confusing for the fans and shows F1 in a bad light and the only people to gain from it are the lawyers.
Maybe the biggest problem is that RP have caught all the others off guard and they are annoyed that they never thought of it first but I expect that a bigger rule change is coming to stop this happening in the future.
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2020, 09:44:37 AM »
The FIA's excuses don't stack up. It comes across as the FIA seeing something they don't like and retrospectively penalising it, rather than coming up with a coherent ruleset and following it.

Had I the standing to do so, I'd be seriously tempted to send the FIA to court for both Racing Point and Ferrari - for the same reason (penalising teams for actions that according to the regulations were legal).

The FIA is regulating to the rules it wishes it had and not the ones it actually has.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline monty

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2020, 09:52:58 AM »
As is almost always the case, Ali is right!
My frustration is that the appeal process will take this 'legal' and away from the people that actually understand the technicalities. It will cost $millions at a time when the sport says it is trying to control expenses! However, the worst thing...… Ferrari are now leading the appeal!!!! The team that ran illegal engines all of last season and got away with a 'behind closed doors agreement with the FIA'. You couldn't write a less believable farce if you tried!

Online rmassart

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2020, 06:44:14 AM »
Quote from: Andy B link=topic=21982.msg137222#msg137е222 date=1597108545
This is somewhat confusing for the fans and shows F1 in a bad light and the only people to gain from it are the lawyers.

This is the worst part for me. If the FIA ruled the car legal and the part hasn't changed  since, the stewards should have no possibility to rule the part illegal. This is so confusing. I don't get it and I've been following F1 for thirty years...

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2020, 06:26:50 PM »
The FIA seems to go by the policy that it's legal until somebody protests, then we'll really look at it.
Lonny

Offline John S

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2020, 06:29:19 PM »
Quote from: Andy B link=topic=21982.msg137222#msg137е222 date=1597108545
This is somewhat confusing for the fans and shows F1 in a bad light and the only people to gain from it are the lawyers.

This is the worst part for me. If the FIA ruled the car legal and the part hasn't changed  since, the stewards should have no possibility to rule the part illegal. This is so confusing. I don't get it and I've been following F1 for thirty years...

Aye but there's the rub! - the part itself is not illegal!  :nono:

But, and it's a strange but - the part was designed by a method deemed to fall outside the sporting rules.

Clear as Mud ain't it!!!!!
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline monty

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2020, 04:56:26 PM »
Maybe they can still kill the appeals before lawyers take over:-
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/151654/todt-hopes-new-rules-can-settle-copycat-design-issues

Offline Scott

Re: Opinions about the 'handbags at dawn' re: Racing Point
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2020, 06:11:36 PM »
You could say that brake ducts are safety equipment because more efficient ducts can prevent brake failure.  If a partner manufacturer has developed one that is better, and they don’t mind, or sell you the design then go ahead and use it.  Ferrari should go after teams that are copying their own design...but they won’t because nobody wants to at the moment  ;)
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

 


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