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Author Topic: Honda abandoning ship!  (Read 1499 times)

Online Jericoke

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2020, 01:16:50 PM »
That completely misses the point - you can produce Hydrogen using renewable energy. It is therefore sustainable and 'green'. The problem is nobody has invested in clean production of Hydrogen because there is insufficient demand for the gas. If cars turned to Hydrogen, the demand would be sufficient to gain the necessary investment in making an economic and sustainable fuel.
Battery EV's do not make 'whole life' sense. Batteries are 'dirty' to make and 'dirty' to recycle. They are rapidly depleting the rare earth materials they need. They have a relatively short useful life. Physics determines that if you charge them too quickly you shorten their life and you waste energy by producing excess heat. (and just in case anyone raises the 'safety' of Hydrogen - batteries can also be quite dangerous - I have seen a large battery pack short-circuited and it was terrifying). All of this said, the reason that battery EV's are completely impractical is infrastructure. It would be impossible to provide charging facilities for all of the cars currently used in the world. There are approx. 33million cars in the UK. If they were all electric and even if you could charge them in less than an hour (which you can't) you simply could not provide enough charging points plus the demand on the grid would black-out the Country. As you may have gathered I do not believe battery EVs are the future and therefore they shouldn't be the future of motor sport.

Before the gasoline/petrol powered internal combustion engine became the 'standard' for automobiles, there were several competing technologies that were seen as equally viable.  Electric cars were a thing, as were steam powered cars.  The Model T was a flex fuel vehicle.  Since petroleum distilate infrastructure didn't exist, farmers were expected to create their own ethanol to power their any-colour-you-want-so-long-as-its-black cars.

Electric and hydrogen powered cars might not make sense now, but I do appreciate people are making an effort.

As for 'replacing' the 33 million cars in the UK, or the 275 million in the USA, this is ALSO about what cars will be flooding emerging economies in China, India and Africa.  At a guess*, over the next 20 years we're looking at a billion new cars on the road.  I'd like to make sure THOSE cars aren't causing a problem.  Let the 'rich countries' work out the kinks on any new systems so that the technology is mature enough to install a responsible infrastructure in a region that doesn't have any at all.

*I'm no economist, my numbers may be way off, but surely we can agree it's going to be a lot of cars, and we'd like them to be as clean as possible.

Offline John S

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2020, 01:25:02 PM »
Funny ain't it how summat turns up when needed.

I read this article yesterday and today I can add it to this discussion about  Hydrogen's future as fuel. Seems not everyone has given up on Hydrogen research; what will the boffins try next?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2256822-microwaving-plastic-waste-can-generate-clean-hydrogen/
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Online Jericoke

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2020, 01:50:15 PM »
Funny ain't it how summat turns up when needed.

I read this article yesterday and today I can add it to this discussion about  Hydrogen's future as fuel. Seems not everyone has given up on Hydrogen research; what will the boffins try next?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2256822-microwaving-plastic-waste-can-generate-clean-hydrogen/

I know a lot of these discoveries go nowhere (remember 20 years ago we were going to power our diesel cars with left over grease from McDonald's?), but a process then generates hydrogen gas, carbon nanotubes and eliminates plastic?  It doesn't even need to be 'energy efficient' per se, as it solves several problems in one.

Offline monty

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2020, 02:14:12 PM »
So F1 cars of the future might just have a hopper full of waste plastic and a big micro wave magnetron making Hydrogen for the internal fuel cell  ;)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2020, 02:39:57 PM »
Maybe that was what was trying to burn its way out of Lando's car last Sunday.  ;)

Seriously, if it works this could be a fine thing.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline rmassart

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2020, 05:08:07 PM »
There are approx. 33million cars in the UK. If they were all electric and even if you could charge them in less than an hour (which you can't) you simply could not provide enough charging points plus the demand on the grid would black-out the Country. As you may have gathered I do not believe battery EVs are the future and therefore they shouldn't be the future of motor sport.

On the one hand this is true, but it assumes we will all continue to want to own cars in the future. EVs are making a break through just as auto driving cars are pushing their way through too. The moment you have self-driving cars I strongly believe car ownership will plummet. You just request one on your smartphone when needed. Gone is the expense and headache of owning the car.  It's a service you pay for as needed.  In this scenario there is no need to have charging points inside every garage and every parking spot. Car manufacturers are already seeing how they can make cars last a million miles in anticipation of this possible future... Note the word possible. It might well never happen that way...

Offline jimclark

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2020, 05:29:20 PM »
Why would cars being autonomous, be they electric or whatever, deter me from wanting a personal convenience?
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Offline rmassart

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2020, 06:36:55 PM »
Why would cars being autonomous, be they electric or whatever, deter me from wanting a personal convenience?

Because depending on where you live, your financial situation and many other factors it might be more convenient to not own a car and simply have one available as needed, when needed.  No maintenance, no running costs, no large outlay to buy the thing in the first place, no parking worries, no insurance payments.

Where I live, I could get by without a car (especially in these corona times) most of the time. Public transport is very good and completely free.  But I still own a car because of the "edge cases" where public transport is not convenient (eg getting somewhere on a Sunday). If I could request a car on a smartphone with a guarantee it would turn up within a few minutes in such a situation, I would seriously think of ditching my car. 

Last time I was in the US a couple of years ago I was really impressed with the availability of cars through the Uber service. Now imagine that, but without the need for Uber to pay the driver! :-)  Unfortunately Uber is not available here and Taxis cost a fortune.


Offline Warmwater

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2020, 02:35:58 AM »
RMassart: Luxembourg! Wow- would love to spend some time there.

Taxi service here is also expensive, the highest rates in Mexico. The drivers can be selective, favoring tourists and longer trips. The taxi companies and unions are VERY militant against any competition from new companies or Uber type service.  Living here can be a problem because there is no public transit in the downtown areas, so either you walk or pay exorbitant taxi fees. Having a car is essential. Buses and economical taxis are available in the outlying areas, and probably Uber, but they are not allowed in the tourist zones.

In my opinion, some of the ideas about not having a car and relying on someone else to pick you up and take you to your destination leaves out a couple of details....
I love to drive, especially in an interesting vehicle on a winding country road. Not so much in the downtown traffic, but I am fortunate that our housekeeper does all of the shopping etc. so I don't have to go there.
Someone mentioned that if you relied on Uber type of transportation you would not have to pay for insurance, maintenance, cost of the vehicle, and I suppose fuel. Guess what, those costs are part of what you will pay for the ride. But it is more convenient to pay bit by bit in just one place.
Standing at the curb waiting for a bus / taxi / Uber to eventually show up is not better than immediately getting in your MG and driving away.

Honda is a wise organization, apparently they are getting out of Formula 1 to concentrate on some other power system. It will be interesting to see exactly what they are working on, maybe it could be used in some other racing series.
"There is nothing wrong with the car, except that it is on fire"    Murray Walker

Offline rmassart

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2020, 06:05:41 AM »
RMassart: Luxembourg! Wow- would love to spend some time there.
It's a nice place, but not because of the free transport! And the roads are still blocked because of people (me included) driving to work. But that's 'cause the car is quicker door to door, despite the traffic jams, and I do have a car, so I should use it, right? But I don't enjoy my morning commute at all. I get to work much more relaxed the days I get public transport. Which is maybe half the time.

Standing at the curb waiting for a bus / taxi / Uber to eventually show up is not better than immediately getting in your MG and driving away.

No, but cycling is often also an option. As I said, it depends on your personal situation and the local infrastructure. I am convinced car ownership will drop in the coming decades at least in Europe. One reason is that younger generations are struggling to afford a car, there is also a dynamic to get cars out of cities and force people to switch to public transport or bicycles and then of course there is online shopping and delivery services.

Personally, for my situation, if I could be guaranteed a car on my doorstep within a few minutes of requesting on my smartphone, I would be happy not to own a car.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2020, 10:12:23 AM »
Why would cars being autonomous, be they electric or whatever, deter me from wanting a personal convenience?

Price. It's more expensive to have an automated car than a non-automated one, plus it removes one of the big costs of short-term renting a vehicle (the taxi driver). This makes it possible to rent more journeys for the cost of purchasing a car.

This is especially true given that the main problem automated cars have at the moment is handling human car drivers - meaning it's likely implementation will involve banning non-automated cars from certain places (removing the cheaper purchase option).

I don't expect people older than me to stop having cars - they're used to the convenience and other benefits Warmwater describes. I do expect that large swathes of people my generation and younger to largely not bother buying one in the first place. Already I am in a situation where the only times I am a passenger in a car is when my parents insist on it (on routes that are either walkable or have a viable public transport route already!) or to get from Silverstone to Northampton on a Sunday night.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2020, 01:47:04 PM »
I actually owned my first car before I had a license. The driving age was 16 but one could (and still can) get a "learner's permit" at 15-1/2. Also, my $150 worth of 1961 Falcon wagon needed a few little tweaks to make it road worthy. (like 3x the original 96 horsepower, a 4 speed out of a wrecked Mustang and such)

This kind of thing isn't that unusual. My daughter had an Escort before she had her license. The same with my granddaughter and her Neon.

Public transit is pretty much non existent here in the hills. Lancaster only recently restarted municipal bus service for the 1st time since the 1960's, but only 2 routes and a very spotty schedule. Uber & Lyft are pretty much non existent outside of the city limits, where a sizable percentage of folks live.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Online Jericoke

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2020, 02:10:31 PM »
I actually owned my first car before I had a license. The driving age was 16 but one could (and still can) get a "learner's permit" at 15-1/2. Also, my $150 worth of 1961 Falcon wagon needed a few little tweaks to make it road worthy. (like 3x the original 96 horsepower, a 4 speed out of a wrecked Mustang and such)

This kind of thing isn't that unusual. My daughter had an Escort before she had her license. The same with my granddaughter and her Neon.

Public transit is pretty much non existent here in the hills. Lancaster only recently restarted municipal bus service for the 1st time since the 1960's, but only 2 routes and a very spotty schedule. Uber & Lyft are pretty much non existent outside of the city limits, where a sizable percentage of folks live.

Just like rural areas in Canada and the USA are being left behind by broadband internet... those areas are also going to be left behind as forces conspire to make car ownership a luxury instead of a necessity.

Quite frankly, the American car companies did an amazing job of creating a society that depends on them.  Hopefully they find a way to keep it up.  Automated non polluting cars are great.  Your own personal one would be amazing.  Hopefully the economies of scale will offset the savings that sharing would bring.  A company would rather sell 20 cars and make $1000 each than 5 cars making $2000 each.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2020, 04:00:37 PM »
The last thing I the world I would ever want is a "self driving" car. I wouldn't even ride in one. Fortunately, we have a better chance of seeing flying cars than Level 4 or Level 5 self aiming cars.

The entire idea of self driving cars always reminds me of this gadget from the 1973 movie Sleeper. They both have exactly the same amount of usefulness.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Online Jericoke

Re: Honda abandoning ship!
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2020, 08:29:41 PM »
The last thing I the world I would ever want is a "self driving" car. I wouldn't even ride in one. Fortunately, we have a better chance of seeing flying cars than Level 4 or Level 5 self aiming cars.

The entire idea of self driving cars always reminds me of this gadget from the 1973 movie Sleeper. They both have exactly the same amount of usefulness.

I love driving... on the open road. But in the city, I'm willing to give up my autonomy if it means forcing the idiots to give up theirs.

Taking things somewhat back to racing... I'd love to see a support series for Formula E with fully automated cars.  A)  The first few seasons will be hilarious  B)  once they get the software working, the cars will be able to do things that drivers can't, just because of G-forces  C)  it will be a great way to advance the technology, which is SUPPOSED to be a part of top level racing.  D) It will inspire Fast And Furious 27 where Vin Diesel and the Rock take down robot cars.

 


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