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Author Topic: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes  (Read 630 times)

Offline Jericoke

2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« on: October 12, 2020, 01:54:35 AM »
Probably just the single race, but maybe we'll get another Eifel GP.  Crazier things have happened.

Heroes

Hamilton.  Not a perfect weekend, thanks to a Hamilton-esque qualifying lap from Bottas, but Hamilton was good when he needed to be, and effortlessly dominated the race, capitalizing on Bottas's mistake.  It only looked close because of the safety car.

Hulkenburg.  Yes, the Racing Point is a pretty good car with a top engine, but to start dead last as a sub without any practice, and earn some solid points is legendary.

Verstappen.  He's got all the makings of a star racer, and continues to prove it by doing his best, and fully understanding what his best is.

Ricciardo/Renault.  No team/driver has grown as much this season.  Sure, they've both got past experience as winners, but their first podium of the year felt earned/overdue.

Zeroes

Kimi, Albon.  Come on guys you know how wide an F1 car is, how wide an F1 circuit is, and what 'fair' racing looks like.

Engine reliability.  We've had basically the same formula for how long?  Maybe we've been spoiled with too much reliability lately, but it's no fun watching people pull off.  At least give us the big BANG that we used to get with cars trailing clouds of smoke!  (Norris's car DID try to catch fire, so that's something.)

Honorable mention:

Norris taking a seat after his car retired.  Perhaps not as iconic as Alonso on the lawn chair or Kimi on his yacht, but a solid #3, especially for a young driver!



Online jimclark

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2020, 03:16:36 AM »
Engine reliability.  We've had basically the same formula for how long?  Maybe we've been spoiled with too much reliability lately, but it's no fun watching people pull off.  At least give us the big BANG that we used to get with cars trailing clouds of smoke!  (Norris's car DID try to catch fire, so that's something.)
Different strokes for different folks......I miss the days of yore where part of the suspense was who was gonna blow an engine, miss a shift, or run off course and bend something. T'was part of the thrill and usually didn't let you down as a few always did.......the question was just who and when.  ;)
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Offline cosworth151

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2020, 01:26:06 PM »
I think Jeri's point is that there aren't any good old, David Hobbs "Ker-Blammo!" moments. I agree. The current power plants expire not with a bang but with a whimper.

To the above listed I'll add-

Heroes

The Nurburgring - It's only a shadow of its former self but still head & shoulders above most of the circuits on recent F1 schedules.

Norris - He spent most of his race fighting a malfunctioning sensor. He still managed to only loose a couple of spots before something overheated & tried to burn through the engine cover.

Schumacher - Mick presented Lewis with one of his father's Mercedes helmets on the occasion of Lewis equaling Michael's 91 F1 victories. A very good moment indeed.

Haas - POINTS!!!!!!!!!!

Zeroes

The rain - It didn't show up  :'(


Oh, and did I mention that Haas scored points?  :yahoo:
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Jericoke

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2020, 03:45:21 PM »
I think Jeri's point is that there aren't any good old, David Hobbs "Ker-Blammo!" moments. I agree. The current power plants expire not with a bang but with a whimper.


I did mean it both ways... I like seeing the race decided on track, not by a bad design.  When a car fails, I like to SEE it fail, big cloud of smoke, collapsed suspension.  Cars pulling into the garage with no warning is dull.  I also miss the suspense of wondering which cars would make it to the finish line... the proverbial perfect car being the one that falls apart 1 pace past the finish line.

The modern cars,with all their dials and switches and knobs, it doesn't seem like the driver can really 'fix' anything either.  Either the car works at 100% or forget it.  I know that the FIA didn't like teams fixing the car from the pit wall, but I loved watching McLaren fix Coulthard's car at Monaco in 2002.  Maybe with the modern power units being so complex, they should allow that again.

Offline rmassart

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2020, 08:24:43 PM »
The modern cars,with all their dials and switches and knobs, it doesn't seem like the driver can really 'fix' anything either.  Either the car works at 100% or forget it.

It's same with normal road cars as well nowadays. Gone are the days when you could tinker with the mechanics of your car to get it working again. Now you need to take it to the licensed garage who plug in their IT systems, run a diagnosis to figure out the problem, do a reboot, say it's fixed and charge you a load of cash for the pleasure! I exaggerate, but not that much...

As for the race, my hero would be Ricciardo. Coming in third, means Abiteboul gets a tattoo right?  :D

Online lkjohnson1950

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2020, 08:37:26 PM »
Yep. Daniel says he's gonna hold him to it too.

I wish diagnostics were that simple. Took Subaru 3 tries to diagnose and replace the mass air sensor on my GT. And the '05's have a habit of stalling at the first stop after a long run on the freeway. Reported by high numbers of owners and never fixed.

I would like to give a shout out to Le Clerc who seems to drag the Ferrari dog higher than it deserves almost every race. That's a hero.
Lonny

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2020, 09:24:37 AM »
Heroes

Hamilton - stayed cool (yes, I realise that shouldn't be too difficult when the drivers are sporting beanies outside the car...) and accepted his place as "mentionable in the same breath as Michael Schumacher" with much grace.

Hulkenberg - there must have been a phone booth outside that Cologne cafe, because Nico really was Superman to Racing Point. 12 places in the space of a race is seriously impressive stuff, especially given that even backmarkers don't jump out of the way of a Racing Point like they do a Mercedes. I can see why many gave him Driver of the Day. Give this man a 2021 F1 drive.

Ricciardo - Defending is difficult, so to maintain podium with Checo challenging all the way makes Daniel's podium very well-deserved.

Honourary mention: Leclerc. I've got used to him putting the Ferraris in places where it doesn't belong, fighting to hold positions. This was a track that at least permitted such defence (as distinct from the likes of Mugello, where DRS was overpowered) leading to a lovely "Trulli train" at times, and even the occasional overtake.

Zeroes

Chase Carey - for supporting the destruction of large swathes of Brazillian rainforests to appease a bad leader and avoid using the perfectly functional Interlagos (wouldn't it be cheaper to build an on-site/adjacent-to-site-with-track-access hotel for the F1 people to stay, and then just secure their journeys into and out of Sao Paulo?). Pretty sure that lobbying for breaking national law to achieve the above is also outside his permitted remit.

Albon - I think the inconsistent attitude of Red Bull to anyone who is not a Max Verstappen clone is slowly breaking Alex. It hurts. "They're racing me so hard" could perhaps be taken as a veiled compliment, but the tone in which he said it sounded aggravated, which is never a good state for attempting an overtake. So it proved soon afterwards.

Raikkonen - That move was never on. Being that desperate against a car which is significantly slower than one's own is a bad omen.

Dishonourable mention: Stroll. I get the enthusiasm to race might lead to not telling one's team about the full extent of one's illness until the last minute. However, standing/sitting around in the cold fog was never going to help. I really think he should have told Racing Point he was going to spend Friday in bed as soon as he opened the curtains that morning. It might not have saved his weekend but it would probably have helped him recover quicker, even so.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Willy

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2020, 07:21:43 PM »
Nurburgring is a great track and I lke the elevation changes that add more challenge as some apex points are up or down and some can't be seen from a driver laying on his back.
Hamilton once again showed his talent and is always cool and the first to thank the team on radio after a win. No screaming like a little girl over the radio in jubilation.
LeClerc gets so much from the Red POS and stays out of trouble.
Riccardo gets a points finish and hold off Perez. Well done.
 I too miss watching the left or right bank of an engine flame out and sent a plume of smoke out in anger.
These new mostly electronic slotcars are rather boring when they fail. Who am I kidding, their boring when they don't fail as well.


Offline Dare

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2020, 01:15:27 PM »
Nurburgring is a great track and I lke the elevation changes that add more challenge as some apex points are up or down and some can't be seen from a driver laying on his back.
Hamilton once again showed his talent and is always cool and the first to thank the team on radio after a win. No screaming like a little girl over the radio in jubilation.
LeClerc gets so much from the Red POS and stays out of trouble.
Riccardo gets a points finish and hold off Perez. Well done.
 I too miss watching the left or right bank of an engine flame out and sent a plume of smoke out in anger.
These new mostly electronic slotcars are rather boring when they fail. Who am I kidding, their boring when they don't fail as well.


i think the reason Ham is so cool is when you
have a car that needs a malfunction to lose when
you win what's there to get excited about. When he
loses now that's a different story
"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline Jericoke

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2020, 01:45:09 PM »
Nurburgring is a great track and I lke the elevation changes that add more challenge as some apex points are up or down and some can't be seen from a driver laying on his back.
Hamilton once again showed his talent and is always cool and the first to thank the team on radio after a win. No screaming like a little girl over the radio in jubilation.
LeClerc gets so much from the Red POS and stays out of trouble.
Riccardo gets a points finish and hold off Perez. Well done.
 I too miss watching the left or right bank of an engine flame out and sent a plume of smoke out in anger.
These new mostly electronic slotcars are rather boring when they fail. Who am I kidding, their boring when they don't fail as well.


i think the reason Ham is so cool is when you
have a car that needs a malfunction to lose when
you win what's there to get excited about. When he
loses now that's a different story

I think that it's part of his persona that he puts on.  That when things are going well, he likes to come across as 'cool and collected'.  As you say, easy to do when things are going well.  When things go wrong, much easier for your passions to bubble to the surface.

I would say that while drivers like Alonso and Vettel let their emotions out much more than Lewis, I also think that's a deliberate choice on their 'persona' too.

We all know that what makes a driver beloved isn't just their results on track, but their personality off track, as well as what we hear over the radio.  Some drivers just naturally have that, like Hunt, Senna or Ricciardo.  Others have to work at it. Max has been trying to come up with a 'personality' for years, and I think he's realized petulant child wasn't going to work, so he's aiming for a mature goofball. 

I know I'd come across as an ignorant fool if I was on the international stage, but if I was in that position, I'd work at it.

Online jimclark

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2020, 02:20:05 PM »
I would like to give a shout out to Le Clerc who seems to drag the Ferrari dog higher than it deserves almost every race. That's a hero.
I must disagree. But only with the "drag the Ferrari dog higher than it deserves".
I do agree that CLC is doing a fine job. He appears to be getting all he can out of the car, although Vettel doesn't seem to be very much of a measuring stick lately.
If only we could see Lewis or Max take a few pokes at it ('would be foolish to mention Clark or Senna  :'()

There is no such thing as making a car do more than it deserves. If it is capable of being driven to a specific finishing position, then it does "deserve" it. Nitpicking I know; but a very important one. :)
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Offline John S

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2020, 04:14:10 PM »
I would like to give a shout out to Le Clerc who seems to drag the Ferrari dog higher than it deserves almost every race. That's a hero.
I must disagree. But only with the "drag the Ferrari dog higher than it deserves".
I do agree that CLC is doing a fine job. He appears to be getting all he can out of the car, although Vettel doesn't seem to be very much of a measuring stick lately.
If only we could see Lewis or Max take a few pokes at it ('would be foolish to mention Clark or Senna  :'()

There is no such thing as making a car do more than it deserves. If it is capable of being driven to a specific finishing position, then it does "deserve" it. Nitpicking I know; but a very important one. :)

Ah now jim boy you seem to have opened up a rather tricky philosophical area here.

Are there drivers who can push a car beyond what others believe, know, or only think is possible?....... - or is it simply a matter of maximising the best potential of any car at a particular track on a given day?

Do some individuals have an inherent, but maybe subconscious, ability to go beyond the parameters of most others in both physical and mental tasks? - Probably yes if recorded human feats and records are to make any sense at all.

Obviously it's not as simple as saying Lewis or Max could extract the same or perhaps more than Charles from the present Red dog as lots of other factors come into play. But how do we explain the greats in F1 or any other field of human endeavour without accepting that a few possess something (indeed maybe a lot more) above the top average? 

How can we explain your namesake Jim Clark's seemingly effortless destruction of the field at most races when team mates and opposition were in very similar cars, or Fangio's dominance even against Moss. 

   
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Online jimclark

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2020, 05:22:22 PM »
Ah now jim boy you seem to have opened up a rather tricky philosophical area here.

Are there drivers who can push a car beyond what others believe, know, or only think is possible?....... - or is it simply a matter of maximising the best potential of any car at a particular track on a given day?

Do some individuals have an inherent, but maybe subconscious, ability to go beyond the parameters of most others in both physical and mental tasks? - Probably yes if recorded human feats and records are to make any sense at all.

Obviously it's not as simple as saying Lewis or Max could extract the same or perhaps more than Charles from the present Red dog as lots of other factors come into play. But how do we explain the greats in F1 or any other field of human endeavour without accepting that a few possess something (indeed maybe a lot more) above the top average? 

How can we explain your namesake Jim Clark's seemingly effortless destruction of the field at most races when team mates and opposition were in very similar cars, or Fangio's dominance even against Moss.

Eggsackly......  :good: :)
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Offline Jericoke

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2020, 06:37:00 PM »
I would like to give a shout out to Le Clerc who seems to drag the Ferrari dog higher than it deserves almost every race. That's a hero.
I must disagree. But only with the "drag the Ferrari dog higher than it deserves".
I do agree that CLC is doing a fine job. He appears to be getting all he can out of the car, although Vettel doesn't seem to be very much of a measuring stick lately.
If only we could see Lewis or Max take a few pokes at it ('would be foolish to mention Clark or Senna  :'()

There is no such thing as making a car do more than it deserves. If it is capable of being driven to a specific finishing position, then it does "deserve" it. Nitpicking I know; but a very important one. :)

I sort of agree with you.  When a driver dominates a teammate, it doesn't mean the car is bad, it means it's suited to the strength of the 'dominant' driver.

Certainly there are basic metrics to an F1 car, top speed, acceleration, fuel efficiency, traction, etc.  Plenty of smart people can put these numbers together to predict how the car should operate.  Then a driver will come along and prove them wrong.  I think the difference is a combination of risk tolerance and raw reactionary skill.  Going X speed into Y corner will spin out 99% of the time, therefore, the car shouldn't go into y corner at x speed, yet an extraordinary driver can find that 1% each and every time... driving the car beyond 'reasonable' expectations.

Given how modern F1 cars are compromises between all available factors, it makes sense for designers to go to the strengths of their driver, at the same time it makes sense for management to have drivers with different skill sets, since creating an F1 car is still as much black magic as science.  Basically it's going to be a gamble who the car suits, and if they're even driving for you.

In that vein, I think the 'fairest' season I've ever seen was 2007 with Hamilton and Alonso both new to the McLaren team.  Two of the top drivers of the era in identical cars, most likely designed to suit the eventual champion at another team.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: 2020 Eifel Grand Prix - Heroes and Zeroes
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2020, 10:47:53 AM »
I find this a complicated one.

There are times when a car's quality can be easily seen to be high, such as when McLaren in 2008 had Hamilton and Kovalainen, we could be reasonably sure it was because Hamilton was maximising the car and Kovalainen was falling short of the necessary benchmark. (In hindsight, it seems he and the McLaren ethos were incompatible, because not every Finn is Hakkinen - who fit perfectly - or even Raikkonen - who was able to shove a square peg into a round hole).

Sometimes, you get what is blatantly an overperformance. The EJ13 was usually the 2nd slowest car of the 2003 season and even in Brazil recorded the 13th fastest lap (in a field where many cars had retired before optimal conditions occurred).  Yet Brazil was a race the EJ13 won. (Remind me to tell you one day about the sequence of events required for this to occur... ...suffice to say, victory was not the position the EJ13 could reasonably be said to have deserved prior to the race).

Then you have cases like this year's Ferrari, which is far more complicated. Given that Vettel clearly has one foot out the door, I don't think we'll ever have a yardstick for what is a reasonable expectation of that car. Is a reasonable expectation for it to be fighting for that last point (in which case Leclerc's definitely punching above its weight?) Is it reasonable to expect top 8s on a typical day (in which case Vettel's seriously underdriving it?) Or is it somewhere in between, in which case the "configured to dominant driver" becomes a reasonable hypothesis?

Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

 


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