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Author Topic: Mercedes W11  (Read 1539 times)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2020, 03:52:13 PM »
Those rules don't change from performance to performance as is happening in auto racing (Le Mans for example.....BoPing right during the week of the event....). You're example of handicapping is the same all season(s) long which is a known playing field, not one that changes mid season, again for the benefit of the show.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Controlling the competition by punishing the successful. Those that are very good deserve their rewards; not to be diminished for sake of the show. It's no longer true sport when you slow (improvement or speed) those that are on top for the benefit of the show.....plain old entertainment, not competition in a given sport.


I understand the financial aspect of the activity and I am aware that are many that will still be entertained and ignore the orchestration.
I having participated in all sorts of racing (and outside racing, things I've done along the way to support myself) and would not have been pleased if I was "handicapped" at times because I was more successful than others.
I also did not cry foul when I was not performing as well as others. I dug deeper and strived to do better.

To each his own, but I will always call things what they are, not try to convince myself that they are what they are not. :)

I don't think you'll find an single F1 fan who doesn't want 13 teams with infinitely deep pockets building ever more advanced and powerful racing machines.

I remember when Ferrari would use 3 engines per car per weekend, and the other teams simply could not compete with that.  The FIA tried to get a cap in place,but ultimately it's going to be gamed and cheated as much as any other F1 rules.  So they just put limits on 'expensive' things.  Fewer engines without penalties.  Less testing time.  True, that affected all teams 'equally', but a rich team can still do more with a single engine or test time than a less rich team can. Given that the 'rich' teams end up winning the lion's share of the prize money, it doesn't take an economics degree to see that the gap between rich and poor teams will grow, not shrink, unless you can convince rich people to invest in losing teams.

As far as I know, the FIA and FOM have helped losing teams get investment, but it doesn't seem to stick.  People declare a single team dominating to be boring, but as long as the rules are designed to lift up the dominant team, it can't happen any other way.  Tweaking the rules so that dominance is rewarded, yet losing isn't a death sentence seems great to me.

Also, compared with other sports, I find that F1 is much more flexible about changing course if the rules aren't working as intended.  If windtunnel time is THAT much of a differentiator, the formula will be adapted.

Online John S

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2020, 07:53:56 PM »
Hey Andy do you get that feeling that we've got a split thread going on here. - No not the tyre kind.  :D

Kinda hard to keep up with the argument about 21 tyres. I think Pirelli have already done the investment so there is no saving for them to carry on with what are essentially 2019 tyres.

The drivers and teams raised the same objection about new 2020 tyres and I think that Pirelli is fed up spending money on development to find it's for nought. I'm sure they'll be trying to strong arm FIA into not giving way this time. My point is there will be a change of tyre for next season, 2021. Your article from BBC seems to confirm this.
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2020, 08:23:52 PM »
Back in the 1930's Auto Union drivers were trying to put 600 BHP give or take, through a 6 inch wide tire so hard it was good for several races, using a mid engined chassis with swing axles. Mercedes drivers were only slightly better off with a front mid engined chassis that was a bit more forgiving. Marbles were non existent. Pirelli should just give them 3 compounds and say this is it, deal with it. Let them actually use the throttle on every corner in stead of lift, brake, floor it.
Lonny

Offline Andy B

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #18 on: December 28, 2020, 06:11:30 AM »
I have to admit John it's a job to keep up with what is going on at times with all the contradictions. In the end as long as everyone has the same as long as its from the same manufacturer then all is fine.
There's always to debate if we should have two tyre manufacturers and a tyre war?
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline cosworth151

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2020, 03:19:57 PM »
The biggest difference between the current tires and the 2022 spec is much greater than wheel size. Since the tire diameter will be only slightly larger, the sidewall height will greatly decrease. Total sidewall radial length goes from 156mm to 117.5mm, which takes them from being 46% of the radius to 32%.

Currently, a major amount of the total suspension movement is achieved by the tire sidewalls flexing. That will largely disappear under the new rules. I can't see how a compound designed for almost rigid sidewalls could be made to work with the current spec.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Andy B

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2020, 08:06:04 PM »
So it was only August when they decided on new tyres for 2021!

Cut and pasted from Planet F1.
Pirelli’s new tyre compounds for 2021 will leave teams with plenty of “head-scratching” in how to maximise them.

That is the view of Ferrari sporting director Laurent Mekies as new tyre prototypes are introduced following the blow-outs that occurred during the 2020 season, most notably at the British Grand Prix.

The original plan had been to stick with the same tyres for a third consecutive campaign, but that was shelved following the issues experienced by Lewis Hamilton, Valtteri Bottas and Carlos Sainz at Silverstone in August.

The new compounds were first trialled, along with several other variations, in FP2 for the Portuguese Grand Prix. As a result of feedback, a prototype of choice was decided upon and this was sampled by all teams at the Bahrain Grand Prix FP2 session.

The 2021 tyres, which are more robust but slightly slower and have an impact on the handling of the car, were not particularly well received by the drivers when tested in Bahrain, with Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel saying they would prefer to stick with the current compounds.
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline jimclark

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2020, 05:55:51 PM »
I don't think you'll find an single F1 fan who doesn't want 13 teams with infinitely deep pockets building ever more advanced and powerful racing machines.

I remember when Ferrari would use 3 engines per car per weekend, and the other teams simply could not compete with that.  The FIA tried to get a cap in place,but ultimately it's going to be gamed and cheated as much as any other F1 rules.  So they just put limits on 'expensive' things.  Fewer engines without penalties.  Less testing time.  True, that affected all teams 'equally', but a rich team can still do more with a single engine or test time than a less rich team can. Given that the 'rich' teams end up winning the lion's share of the prize money, it doesn't take an economics degree to see that the gap between rich and poor teams will grow, not shrink, unless you can convince rich people to invest in losing teams.

As far as I know, the FIA and FOM have helped losing teams get investment, but it doesn't seem to stick.  People declare a single team dominating to be boring, but as long as the rules are designed to lift up the dominant team, it can't happen any other way.  Tweaking the rules so that dominance is rewarded, yet losing isn't a death sentence seems great to me.

Also, compared with other sports, I find that F1 is much more flexible about changing course if the rules aren't working as intended.  If windtunnel time is THAT much of a differentiator, the formula will be adapted.

 Many words, but not one addresses turning the sport of F1 auto racing into a fictional show.
 I agree, it makes for great entertainment when teams are "handicapped" to make the, ahem, "racing" closer. But it does nothing for the pinnacle of real auto racing.....a design, fabrication, development, setup, driving.....competition.....and.....yes.....the acquisition of funds, which, generally reflect the levels of achievement of the previous aspects.

 Why should Mercedes (right now), or any other team, be penalized (in this case, "handicapped") for being more productive?
 Additionally, what about the rest of the teams when they start crying "UNFAIR!!!", we need help for catching the front teams too!!!". Where do you perceive that it stops?
 When you change the rules (destroying the basis of F1 in the first place) 'til you end up with a spec car series ('already exists, IndyCar comes to mind; no development, no progressive thinking and technology), what do you do next when the consistently best dominate what that series is?
 Again, IndyCar comes to mind where there are three dominant teams (Penske, Ganassi, and Andretti). That's not fair to the rest, right???  :DntKnw: 
 What to do now? Now you have to change the rules for every team.....nay, driver I guess, too.....???  :o :DntKnw:
 The answer? Keep rewriting the script for each of the players?
 Isn't that just watching "Grand Prix" sequels.....same show, just different writing to change the action? Fiction, no? Not reality.

 The bottom line is, you want a scripted show, not a real sport of auto racing where the best claim their rewards. The pinnacle of motorsport where the very best (every single member of the team) show their wares.
 That will lose me, like IndyCar "racing" (tee-hee, the show) has.
 And many others that do enjoy what F1's foundation is.....not fast, identical billboards going round and round, orchestrated for the show to maximize viewers of said advertising......and apparently soon to be, was, with this socialist mentality.  :(

 What profession are/were you in? Are/were you very good at it? Earn more income than most? Less? The same?
 Suppose, for a minute, that you make widgets and get paid 10 units (F1 Championship points), whatever denomination and currency you chose, per widget. You're consistently capable of making 150 widgets a week (F1 race) earning you 1500 units/week.
Most other widget makers, earning the same salary (F1 rules) can only assemble 120/week....

 They don't think it's fair that you earn 300 units more per week then they do and want you're per widget salary reduced so that they are not earning less then you. Heaven forbid they work harder to achieve what you have.......  ::))

 Is that "fair".....it is a parallel .........???  :DntKnw:

 The same applies to F1.....unless.....your entertainment is the show, not the sport.

 If your answer is yes to the above question, I think I understand your philosophy on life in general....."From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"
 Sound familiar? 'Definitely not one of my credos. ;)


 No más!!! :)
 I know I won't convince you, but maybe some, or even one, to live in the real world of auto racing competition. :)


« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 06:24:41 PM by jimclark »
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Online John S

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2020, 07:06:58 PM »
In truth jimclark F1 has always messed around with the rules to fill grids and to get closer or more dynamic racing.

The early years saw F2 cars being allowed to run to make up numbers to keep the series alive, at other points in time F1 has allowed development down certain paths until they feel it is either getting too dangerous or expensive - aero skirts and ground effect are good examples.

If we look back we also see many regs surrounding engines and capacities, brought in to satisfy widening or narrowing the depth and make up of the grid and let's not forget the environmental agenda to be satisfied. This process has often been significantly influenced, if not plainly gamed, by existing players and interests to the point that other big players walk away.

Then we get the rewriting of rules for the following season after a team has driven a proverbial horse & cart through the regs to make substantial gains - they say everyone will want to spend big trying to copy so a ban by season end is best for all.

IMHO the new style cars set originally as a big rebalancing act in 2021, now held over to 22, may result in a shake up for a year or two but cream tends to rise and so we'll see the better/bigger/cleverer team's return to the top PDQ.

2021 is a holding year - however new body/floor/aero regs might close the field up more and different tyres can add to that fun.

I personally see no reason to be despondent about F1's sporting credentials in the next few years, however it looks like being hard on Grid Game predictions, at least for a few races, in the new season.   
.............BRING IT ON!  :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
 
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2020, 07:49:17 PM »
Jim Clark, I agree with a lot of what you said. That's what they did in IMSA a ways back. The rules were pretty wide open and Nissan, Porsche, Toyota, Mazda, Ford, Jaguar and Chevy all entered cars at some point. Eventually Dan Gurney and Toyota built a world beater and the series died. The same thing happened in Cam-Am. Lots of different cars, then Porsche built a car that stomped everyone. The series died. If you let everyone spend anything they want, use huge teams, it will die. They can barely keep 20 cars on the grid now. I don't know the answer, but keeping on as is will just kill the sport.
Lonny

Offline Jericoke

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2020, 07:58:30 PM »

Is it a sport?

Or is it a business?

If it's a sport, do away with the prize money, and let everyone compete for bragging rights.

Otherwise, paying the best players so they can get even better isn't a sport.

I don't care which way they tilt the field to make it even, I just want it even.  The current method is a joke if you consider it a sport ahead of anything else.  I'm okay with the winners making the most money, but then you've got to give everyone else a chance to catch up.


Offline jimclark

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2020, 08:42:49 PM »
In truth jimclark F1 has always messed around with the rules to fill grids and to get closer or more dynamic racing.

The early years saw F2 cars being allowed to run to make up numbers to keep the series alive, at other points in time F1 has allowed development down certain paths until they feel it is either getting too dangerous or expensive - aero skirts and ground effect are good examples.

If we look back we also see many regs surrounding engines and capacities, brought in to satisfy widening or narrowing the depth and make up of the grid and let's not forget the environmental agenda to be satisfied. This process has often been significantly influenced, if not plainly gamed, by existing players and interests to the point that other big players walk away.

Then we get the rewriting of rules for the following season after a team has driven a proverbial horse & cart through the regs to make substantial gains - they say everyone will want to spend big trying to copy so a ban by season end is best for all.

IMHO the new style cars set originally as a big rebalancing act in 2021, now held over to 22, may result in a shake up for a year or two but cream tends to rise and so we'll see the better/bigger/cleverer team's return to the top PDQ.

2021 is a holding year - however new body/floor/aero regs might close the field up more and different tyres can add to that fun.

I personally see no reason to be despondent about F1's sporting credentials in the next few years, however it looks like being hard on Grid Game predictions, at least for a few races, in the new season.   
.............BRING IT ON!  :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

All the above is well and good (barring "The early years saw F2 cars being allowed to run to make up numbers to keep the series alive"....'later on that) except it doesn't address my concern.....you're "handicapping" the dominant..... "A new handicap system for aerodynamic testing will also be introduced in 2021, operating on a sliding scale that reduces the amount of windtunnel time for the leading teams".....for the sake of the "show"..... "the object of the changes is to stop them going even faster and perhaps slow them down a tad.".
That, sir, is "orchestrating" the outcome for a better"show", not true sport.

I have no problem with static rules for everyone for the full season/seasons. Of course that's been going on. That is how one displays the prowess of the best. Not by helping out the ne're-do-wells by handicapping those that achieve......


(P.S. - Regarding the F2 allowance..... I, of course, could be mistaken, but I only remember them running with the big boys at The Ring, as the circuit was so long the F2 cars filled some of the gaps twixt the F1 competitors for the attending spectators during the lengthy laps..... I don't recollect that it was to "help keep the series alive".  ;))

:)
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 08:54:13 PM by jimclark »
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Offline jimclark

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2020, 09:19:48 PM »
Jim Clark, I agree with a lot of what you said. That's what they did in IMSA a ways back. The rules were pretty wide open and Nissan, Porsche, Toyota, Mazda, Ford, Jaguar and Chevy all entered cars at some point. Eventually Dan Gurney and Toyota built a world beater and the series died. The same thing happened in Cam-Am. Lots of different cars, then Porsche built a car that stomped everyone. The series died. If you let everyone spend anything they want, use huge teams, it will die. They can barely keep 20 cars on the grid now. I don't know the answer, but keeping on as is will just kill the sport.

I don't like cost capping, but at least if it's the same for all throughout the season(s) it's fair.....the same playing field for all. There hasn't been one before and F1 is still here.

Again, what I dislike completely is what all other series have introduced and increased.....BoPing during the season, spec'ing (is that a word? :)) the cars and engines thus no innovation, extra long yellows and such for the "show", etc. etc. etc.......

It is no longer the sport (yes, part of the sport of auto racing is, and was the innitiator of racing cars in the first place.....who had the the best cars).
I understand those that just want to see close "racing", as opposed to competition of the best minds available.
Other series exist for that. Leave the tech in F1. I'll happily go back to just reading about it if it diminishes to no live coverage because the sponsors aren't happy with the show, thus the lack of eyeballs on their billboards.
Natural selection will then take it's course....."nature" always does....... :)
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Online John S

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2020, 09:27:54 PM »


(P.S. - Regarding the F2 allowance..... I, of course, could be mistaken, but I only remember them running with the big boys at The Ring, as the circuit was so long the F2 cars filled some of the gaps twixt the F1 competitors for the attending spectators during the lengthy laps..... I don't recollect that it was to "help keep the series alive".  ;))

:)

The whole 1952 & 53 seasons were run to F2 regulations, utilising 2-litre naturally aspirated engines mostly in F2 chassis, to keep the championship alive. Mainly caused by the withdrawal of Alfa who couldn't fund a new F1 car and BRM who benched their planned V16 engine cars entry. There were simply not enough bigger engine cars to make a series.

F1 got going again properly in 54 with a new specification of 2.5 litre unsupercharged engines bringing the likes of Mercedes into the series.

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline jimclark

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2020, 09:58:59 PM »
Ah-haaaaa.... It's good to learn sumpin' new every day. 'Was not aware of that. Thanks.

Guess I've got some research to do. :)
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark

Offline cosworth151

Re: Mercedes W11
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2020, 04:10:09 PM »
I think that the biggest factor allowing one team to run away with a season is one we have discussed here many times. It's that F1 effectively locks teams into the car they start the season with. If a team makes any major mistakes in their initial design, they're back markers for the rest of the year (Ferrari in 2020). Likewise, the team that gets it all correct can rest on its laurels and just cruise until the next year.

Rather than BoPing the cars, allow the teams to correct the situation themselves. Let them make major changes to the cars through the season.

BoPing has a place in racing. It's been made to work very well in production based lower classes. GT3 & GT4 come to mind. It definitely does not belong in top level series with cars designed from the ground up as racers.

Similarly, spec racer cars work well in an under card, "feeder" series. Formula Renault is an example. The SCCA's Spec Racer Ford (SRF) is another very successful series of this type. But trying to do it with a top line series like IndyCar or NASCAR Cup is a fatal mistake.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

 


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