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Author Topic: Oh no no no!  (Read 956 times)

Offline Andy B

Oh no no no!
« on: January 24, 2021, 08:56:29 PM »
F1 and FE should merge is being called by Alexandro Agag who founded FE if that happens I'm off.

Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline rmassart

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2021, 09:35:54 PM »
This might well happen, unfortunately or not, once building CO2 producing cars is no longer on the long term radar for the manufacturers. So, 2030 at the latest. Possibly earlier. I don't see Mercedes justifying their yearly costs of around 300m/year to their board unless there is some relevance to the cars being sold on the road in Europe. The EV revolution is far from perfect, but it is happening whether we like it or not.  Unless someone produces a hydrogen competitor very soon.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2021, 01:10:04 PM »
Just as horse racing was never 'replaced' by car racing, ICE racing will not be 'replaced' by a different power unit.

True, Formula 1 (or whatever 'top level' car racing is to be called) will evolve and adapt, but if you want to watch ICE racing, it will continue for decades.

Personally, I'm okay with newer automotive technologies in racing.  I'd love to see an 'open' type formula, petrol ICE vs electric vs hydrogen. Give some incentive to really push the technologies.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2021, 03:28:35 PM »
I'm with you, Andy. Merging F1 with a spec racer series would be it's "jump the shark" moment, the exact moment when you know that it's all over.

I don't see how any manufacturer can benefit from being in a spec racer series unless they are the "spec" being used. Think Formula Ford, Formula Renault, Porsche Cup. What can they claim? "Oh, look at the pretty paint job we designed." Audi and BMW are already pulling the plug on FE.

Around here, we laughingly call battery electrics "coal fired cars." After all, almost all of the power plants around here burn coal.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline monty

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2021, 03:57:39 PM »
I think this would be a massive problem for Formula E because they would look so slow in comparison with F1.
The Formula E cars are designed for tight bumpy street circuits. Although they accelerate almost as fast as an F1 car they only have a top speed of around 170mph - if there is a straight long enough. This is even slower than a F3 car). Of course they could go faster but only for shorter distances Currently an e-Prix is only about 35miles in a standard 45minute Formula E race - Formula E tracks are typically between 2 and 3km long.
If they raced at Silverstone which is a fast 3.66mile long circuit, and they were asked to do a 45minute race, their battery capacity would probably limit them to about 10 laps with a fairly slow average speed. Also the F1 circuits would have to accommodate Formula E - 'Attack Mode' sections on the track and spectators would have to understand when a driver has the benefit from 'Fan Boost'.
I think Formula E has been devised solely for a TV audience - it really doesn't work when you visit the track (I went to the Hong Kong e-Prix and it was awful).

Offline rmassart

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2021, 09:41:51 AM »
Looking into the future, maybe 30 years from now, and given the current political priorities, I don't see F1 being anything other than electric.  By F1, I mean the top of the pyramid racing league that attracts the best racers in the world (ie the Hamiltons, Schumachers and Sennas).

There will be simply no sense for the current manufacturers investing and improving an engine technology that is not being otherwise used anymore. My kids will be passing their driving license in about 5 years time. Whilst they might well drive my aging ICE car, I doubt they will ever own anything other than an EV.

So in 30 years, when many of us might no longer be around, F1 will be marketed at a generation of people who've never really known ICE cars. They will be historical artifacts, things you see in poorer countries like you see cars from the 50s in Cuba.

They will however have become used to many many aspects in life being virtual, including virtual reality. Attending a race meeting might not be such a big thing, compared to being virtually immersed in it through a VR headset.

In addition, should self-driving cars ever become a reality (a big if), I see car ownership falling and general interest in car racing declining.

Offline monty

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2021, 10:25:11 AM »
I have no idea when things will change but they will and ultimately it will not be to Battery Electric Vehicles. Batteries are inherently 'dirty', the raw materials needed are in short supply and a nationwide charging infrastructure is literally impossible to achieve.
Perhaps solar powered cars will become possible, perhaps Fuel Cells will become more practical, whatever the outcome - for dinosaurs like me, none of them will have the thrill of a noisy, powerful internal combustion engine and I dread autonomous driving cars!

Offline John S

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2021, 12:04:50 PM »
I watched an old episode of 'Top Gear', probably from 2019, a few days ago and they were featuring the Honda Clarity - an electric propelled car without batteries, it's got a hydrogen fuel cell creating electricity on demand. I can see that being a route for F1, and the rest of us as a driving solution. 

I agree that ICE will be as dead as steam power in maybe 10 years, but I really can't see battery powered vehicles being the answer as a total replacement for petrol/diesel cars. Delivery vans yes, they can all be scheduled to be parked up for periods of time to replenish energy. Me and you however are used to going when, where and how far the fancy takes us, restrictions from batteries is a big step backwards and most people don't want it.

I see Hydrogen as the only viable future propellant for F1, although lower formula may run with current ICE engines for much longer. After all F1 is supposed to a step above all other motor racing in both tech and speed.

FE has more to gain from integration and Agag, boss of FE who has started this debate, will be more and more desperate for this as his battery powered series becomes a provincial side show bordering on irrelevance.
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Andy B

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2021, 07:53:43 PM »
An interesting variety of opinions of which they are all valid but the consensus is batteries are not the answer for the motorist whereas Hydrogen (H) is the way to go and there are few around even here in NZ but I've not seen anywhere to buy Hydrogen. Have you?
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline monty

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2021, 08:55:13 AM »
The UK has a few Hydrogen points in the normal fuel station infrastructure. We have one mainstream Hydrogen car (Toyota Mirai); Hyundai have the Nexo coming and I have come across a couple of 'converted' cars. Hardly a Hydrogen revolution! However, a friend has the latest Toyota Mirai and it is a really good car. Certainly every bit as good as ICE or EV cars aimed at the same market. It is possible to make sustainable 'green' Hydrogen and the emissions are truly 'clean'. Hopefully this is the future and I would love to see F1 adopt it early.

Offline cosworth151

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2021, 03:10:55 PM »
I totally agree with Monty on the battery electric vs hydrogen question. We all know from experience with our phones and laptops, battery performance degrades fairly quickly, They are quite expensive to replace. Hydrogen is the most plentiful element in the universe.

I think it would be far easier to convert current gas station to hydrogen than it would to build an all-new network of charging stations.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline rmassart

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2021, 06:11:57 PM »
I also thought it would be better and more efficient to switch to hydrogen cars, rather than battery. But it seems the industry as a whole has other ideas. This is an interesting article from VW.

I know they are not in anyone's good books after dieselgate, but it explains why they think the future is battery and not hydrogen. Basically the overall efficiency in the "energy chain" of battery cars is more than double that of hydrogen cars.  The cost of hydrogen will always be significantly more than that of electricity.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2021, 02:34:53 PM »
The 'best' technology doesn't always win in these situations.  Sometimes an inferior technology with a powerful backer wins.

Other issues are harder to see, the entire supply chain.  Batteries use rare ingredients, is it possible, and efficient, to construct them en masse?  However, there are already companies who do that, so they have plenty of resources, and plenty to lose if their technology isn't used.

Similarly, while charging stations aren't plentiful, generation/distribution of electricity is also done by companies with a lot to lose.

Offline John S

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2021, 03:37:01 PM »
I'm wondering if Red Bull are getting ahead of the game with Hydrogen systems for racing by partnering with Oreca & Plastic Omnium for the WEC Hydrogen entry to Le Mans in 2024.

Maybe they are just diverting capacity away from the F1 operation because of budget cap, but it puts them in a good place should F1 go the Hydrogen route for the new engine era. RBR appears to have no love for a continuation of the overpriced hybrids currently running, they've already stated they can't, or wont, spend the money upgrading Honda PUs. So what is the future for F1 engines/power?

Here is a corporate video from the Hydrogen specialists Plastic Omnium - yeah I know the name sounds like another offshoot of 'The Beatles', but it's a well established new tech savvy business.

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Willy

Re: Oh no no no!
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2021, 05:43:43 PM »
Taking a page from locomotives, the diesel-electric technology might work for F1.
The propulsion is from electric motors and the power is generated onboard from a diesel turning a generator.
It would need to be tweeaked to provide power to weigh ratio and speed factors but maybe it could be a possible step forward from full-on fossil fuel powered cars.
Yes, I realize where diesel comes from.  Food for thought.


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