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Author Topic: Vettel dq'ed  (Read 1370 times)

Offline Dare

Vettel dq'ed
« on: August 02, 2021, 12:11:59 AM »
My only question is why do you have to have
any guess left. Just enough to finish the race
would seem to be enough.

A few cars ran out of gas so how did they get the one
liter sample from them? Or is that podium finishers only?

https://www.yahoo.com/autos/sebastian-vettel-disqualified-podium-position-210300129.html


"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline Willy

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2021, 12:43:36 AM »
Do they do random tests or only podium finishers?

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 01:28:02 AM »
All the top 10 automatically get tested every single race - it's part of the FIA's standard post-race test suite - and random checks are done on finishers outside the top 10 when scrutineers feel like it or race control requests it (though such a request has to be submitted before the race unless the reason for the request is a formal protest from a team). Non-finishers don't get tested unless race control specifically requests it.

The reason for the rule is that the FIA wants to be sure the fuel used is the same as the fuel teams said they'd use (basically, you have to use the same fuel all weekend, though testing at other phases of the weekend is sporadic). To do this, they chemically test the fuel on Thursday, and then again following extraction of the sample after a session. (It can take a while, which is why it never happens mid-session). If the chemical signatures from the tests match, all is well. If they don't, and the samplings and tests were done correctly, the FIA can be sure the fuel does not match, thus they cannot be sure it performs the same as the fuel they were told to expect, and disqualification ensues.

This is why showing the FIA data proving there's fuel still in the car doesn't help - you can't do a chemical analysis of fuel data, only the fuel itself. Because of this, multiple cars (notably including the Williamses) stopped shortly after the chequered flag, in order to ensure that litre was still present in the car. In their cases, the litre was present (possibly because they stopped prematurely), and they were close enough to the limit to argue their non-completion of the victory lap was necessary to comply with the regulations (otherwise they, like Esteban Ocon, would have received a reprimand).

Fuel sampling has to be done under certain parameters because even fairly small things - such as exposure to air - may change some of the more volatile components in the fuel, thus invalidating the sample. If such an error is a team mistake, then that's also a disqualification because the sample's chemical composition has changed and the chemical match test won't work.

For clarity, this is not a claim that Vettel used too much fuel. Rather, it's a claim that Aston Martin did not give him enough margin (for things like reconnaisance laps, the end-of-race lap and the out-lap for today's standing restart) to cover the part of his running not required to be completed using the 105-litre "in-race" restriction.

There is a problem with Vettel's procedure today, though. Apparently on this occasion, the FIA provided a fuel pump to get the sample. This is not the standard procedure, because teams are meant to be responsible for extracting the fuel sample. The FIA pump apparently broke. That means the breach of the procedure is the FIA's. At this point things get hazy, but it appears that instead of allowing the team to attempt an alternative legitimate method of extracting the fuel, the scrutineers simply disqualified the car.

As you can probably imagine, that's a breach of regulations on the FIA's part, if my understanding of their conduct is correct. It would be a slam-dunk victory in the appeals court. Since the error would be procedural, it isn't even necessary for Aston Martin to prove the missing fuel exists in order to win a case under such circumstances. You won't be surprised to hear that Aston Martin is indeed appealing.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2021, 01:53:42 AM by Alianora La Canta »
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2021, 01:17:40 PM »
Apparently the folks at the official F1 website agree with you, Ali. They seem to be taking a wait-and-see policy. In spite of several articles on that site about Vettel's disqualification, their Standings tab still lists him as P2, as of 08:15 EDT (13:15 UK time).
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline cosworth151

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 01:31:16 PM »
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 05:49:38 PM »
Apparently the folks at the official F1 website agree with you, Ali. They seem to be taking a wait-and-see policy. In spite of several articles on that site about Vettel's disqualification, their Standings tab still lists him as P2, as of 08:15 EDT (13:15 UK time).

That's because of the appeal. While the appeal is ongoing, Vettel's P2 is maintained. If the appeal is withdrawn or fails, the disqualification is reinstated.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Andy B

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2021, 11:27:21 PM »
The procedure for the result of the race has been in error in that once disqualified the driver is removed from the result until an appeal is heard if that driver/team appeal. In this case SV was mistakenly reinstated pending an appeal which was incorrect so LH is now P2 and Sainz takes P3.
Although Aston have registered the right to appeal it is unsure if they will as they believe there was 1.44 litres left in the tank but were only able to extract 0.3 of the required 1 litre hence disqualification.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-hungarian-gp-p2/

Here's a better explanation.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/aston-martin-vettel-hungarian-gp-fuel-analysis/6641069/
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 04:06:33 AM by Andy B »
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2021, 12:26:16 PM »
Andy, Aston Martin let the FIA impound the car. That would be pretty indicative that the appeal is serious, because getting the car back to the factory is more important than launching an appeal if the appeal is specious.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Andy B

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2021, 10:24:04 PM »
Andy, Aston Martin let the FIA impound the car. That would be pretty indicative that the appeal is serious, because getting the car back to the factory is more important than launching an appeal if the appeal is specious.

They did Ali and it could only happen with the three week break the car would have spent two weeks sitting in the factory anyway. Time will tell if it's serious this gives them breathing space to assess their options if they had not done so it was case closed.
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Scott

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2021, 09:50:20 PM »
Just to say - the requirement of an entire liter is ridiculous.  1ml is enough for an accurate test, 2ml if you want to run double sample analyses.  We do it with methanol and ethanol all the time at work.

Requiring a liter is basically just a mathematical exam for the engineers.
The Honey Badger doesn't give a...

Offline Andy B

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2021, 10:22:59 PM »
Just to say - the requirement of an entire liter is ridiculous.  1ml is enough for an accurate test, 2ml if you want to run double sample analyses.  We do it with methanol and ethanol all the time at work.

Requiring a liter is basically just a mathematical exam for the engineers.

I thought that too but!
There are three samples one for FIA, one for the team, one for reference although still quite a lot of fuel.
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Dare

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2021, 02:13:34 AM »
Give them all the same gas in gas tanks you
can't tamper with. No need for samples
"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2021, 05:50:49 AM »
Give them all the same gas in gas tanks you
can't tamper with. No need for samples

If it weren't for sponsor deals, this could probably be done...
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline monty

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2021, 08:31:17 AM »
I have said many times; make them carry excess fuel (by setting a minimum finishing weight or fuel volume with no lower tolerance)  - then we wont have 'fuel saving' races or this kind of nonsense at the end of a race

Offline Jericoke

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2021, 12:46:41 PM »
I have said many times; make them carry excess fuel (by setting a minimum finishing weight or fuel volume with no lower tolerance)  - then we wont have 'fuel saving' races or this kind of nonsense at the end of a race

Part of the sport is supposed to be about innovation, forcing them to make the engines more efficient is what they were going for.

Also, with 'environmental footprint' becoming a bigger deal, F1 has felt they need to be making a dent in what people perceive as a 'deliberately wasteful' sport.

Personally, I agree, let them take however much fuel as they want.  I do understand the pressure that the FIA is under to keep F1 'relevant', even through mostly symbolic acts.

 


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