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Author Topic: Vettel dq'ed  (Read 1392 times)

Offline monty

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2021, 05:54:48 PM »
I should correct myself - obviously the cars should be encouraged to be efficient but 'within the current fuel usage regulations', if they were forced to carry enough fuel for a lights to flag race at full racing speed it would avoid some of the boring races where the whole field have been fuel saving and hoping for safety car sessions! Hopefully it would also avoid the current 'Vettel' issue where the team has deliberately run the car as light as possible and got their calculations wrong!

Offline Andy B

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2021, 10:31:22 PM »
Andy, Aston Martin let the FIA impound the car. That would be pretty indicative that the appeal is serious, because getting the car back to the factory is more important than launching an appeal if the appeal is specious.

They did Ali and it could only happen with the three week break the car would have spent two weeks sitting in the factory anyway. Time will tell if it's serious this gives them breathing space to assess their options if they had not done so it was case closed.

Latest!
Appeal is now official and will go ahead.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/aston-martin-appeal-sebastian-vettel-dq/
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2021, 10:44:40 AM »
I have said many times; make them carry excess fuel (by setting a minimum finishing weight or fuel volume with no lower tolerance)  - then we wont have 'fuel saving' races or this kind of nonsense at the end of a race

That litre effectively is the minimum fuel volume, for it must be there at all times when the car is not in the garage. I understand the appeal is based on a procedural mess-up, not on whether the fuel exists (or even necessarily on total inability to extract the fuel).
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline monty

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2021, 02:48:42 PM »
I realise that the requirement to have enough for a 1 litre sample is there to carry out tests of the actual fuel - it therefore also becomes the 'limit' of how little fuel was actually put into the car at the start. My suggestion is that they are forced to carry more fuel so they can use full power throughout the race and still finish with several litres. In fact, they should be forced to carry so much fuel that the only logical tactic would be to run at full power to burn down the weight.

Offline Jericoke

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2021, 02:06:02 AM »
I realise that the requirement to have enough for a 1 litre sample is there to carry out tests of the actual fuel - it therefore also becomes the 'limit' of how little fuel was actually put into the car at the start. My suggestion is that they are forced to carry more fuel so they can use full power throughout the race and still finish with several litres. In fact, they should be forced to carry so much fuel that the only logical tactic would be to run at full power to burn down the weight.

It's my understanding the teams actually run below the allowed fuel capacity, it's worth driving slower late in the race to start with a car several kg lighter.

I think that forcing each team to start with the same fuel load for every race is what you're getting at though.  I think that would be fair.  More efficient cars would still be able to 'dial it up' more than inefficient competitors for an extra few HP

Offline John S

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2021, 10:47:04 AM »

I think that forcing each team to start with the same fuel load for every race is what you're getting at though.  I think that would be fair.  More efficient cars would still be able to 'dial it up' more than inefficient competitors for an extra few HP

OMG!!!  :swoon: :nono:  :nono:  :nono:

I'd like to see flat out racing too but have we really ever had it in F1?  :DntKnw:  Most experts agree with the theory of 'winning in the slowest possible time'.

For most of us part of the spectacle has always been will the car get to the end on the fuel, as well as the possibility of mechanical/electrical/tyre failure - obviously.

The fuel load - or not - as the case may be is part of the gamble for teams and drivers to manage. IMHO taking away yet another risk element  would be speeding us faster towards a spec series than present push with heavily proscriptive 22 aero regs from a seemingly myopic FIA.  :(

If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.   
We know they can't re-fuel in race so it wont matter if teams stop cars immediately after chequered flag, or indeed if cars run out of gas b4 that point.     
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline rmassart

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2021, 04:28:46 PM »
If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.       

I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car (in my car it would be about 6km on a motorway!), but this could lead to interesting gambles from teams: do they add in an extra 300ml in case they get picked for a fuel check, or do they risk running out at the end of the race!

Offline Jericoke

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2021, 05:21:16 PM »
If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.       

I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car (in my car it would be about 6km on a motorway!), but this could lead to interesting gambles from teams: do they add in an extra 300ml in case they get picked for a fuel check, or do they risk running out at the end of the race!

Doesn't even have to be random, why not just take a sample from everyone on the grid before the race?  However,it sounds like getting a fuel sample out of an F1 car isn't simple.  Sure, when they redesign the engines, they could make it easier (assuming it's not an extra point of failure in a crash)


 (I suppose a hidden additive injector might defeat this?)

Offline rmassart

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2021, 05:38:02 AM »
I don't really understand why they don't just mandate the fuel supplier, like they do the tire supplier. It would put an end to this nonsense of having to chemically analyse the fuel in the cars after the race. I realise F1 is a very technical sport and there will always be disqualifications after the race from time to time. For those of us who live and breathe F1 this is fine, but for the casual viewer or the young fans this ruins the race and puts them off. Imagine a 12 year old vettel fan. His hero has put in a great drive to end second and is now disqualified because they can't extract 1l of fuel. He's not actually done anything wrong, it's a technical glitch.

 I used to be a 12 year old Mansell fan and I don't remember anything like that. There was a lot of crap going on then as well, but largely it was all visually comprehensible to a12 year old. Even I don't understand the logic behind the reason for Vettels DQ and I'm now in my late 40s!

Offline John S

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2021, 05:33:28 PM »


I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car

Probably wont even get them off the start if they get wheelspin.    :DD

They allow 100kg for a 52 lap British GP that'd be an average of approx 1.92 Kg/litres per 5.9km lap. However the fuel also has to include formation lap and after race lap so 54 laps needs factoring in, it becomes 1.85kg/litres per lap.

Working from that 300g/ml should get you about 950 metres in anger - or for old gits like me just over 1050yds.  ;)
Not far enough to clear the first timing sector or make a substantial difference to a car by the end. 

From this though it's easy to see if they get their sums wrong at the moment by under 2% they may not have enough in the car to provide the full 1kg required at the end. 
Plain :crazy: if they are in a tight struggle in final laps to fight for a win or the podium.  :(

Now how does that aid the F1 show Signore Domenicali?   :P   
 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2021, 05:46:53 PM by John S »
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Andy B

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2021, 10:07:33 PM »
The FIA turn down Aston's appeal but they are to continue with an appeal which they say is their right so it'll now go to court. I have also read that although Aston initially said there was 1.74 litres of fuel in the car the reason for only being able to extract 0.3 litres was due to a fuel leak leaving them short.
Time is running down for them!

https://www.planetf1.com/news/sebastian-vettel-disqualification-right-to-review-dismissal/
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2021, 04:42:36 AM »
If they need a fuel sample then why not take it from randomly selected cars on grid just b4 cars fire up ahead of the pit personnel leaving track at race start. Just 300ml should be sufficient as Scott has already pointed out.       

I don't know how far 300ml gets you in an F1 car (in my car it would be about 6km on a motorway!), but this could lead to interesting gambles from teams: do they add in an extra 300ml in case they get picked for a fuel check, or do they risk running out at the end of the race!

A F1 is supposed to do a 305 km+ race on 105 litres. So the minimum the F1 car should be able to do is 2.9 km (although it would not manage all of that on the start line, as John S says).
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Jericoke

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2021, 05:21:13 PM »
Sounds like the Aston Martin was burning fuel faster than expected by the team using an extra litre of fuel they didn't think they had.

Not sure how they think that's a defense.  Seems like a clear cut DQ for breaking the rules (whatever you think of the rules, it's pretty clear cut)

Offline Andy B

Re: Vettel dq'ed
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2021, 10:21:02 PM »
That's it, it's over as AM pull the plug on their appeal.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/58190803
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

 


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