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Author Topic: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary  (Read 575 times)

Offline monty

Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« on: August 02, 2021, 02:31:31 PM »
Surprised that nobody had started this (unless I missed it  :tease:). So for me:-
Heroes
George Russell for an excellent race and suggesting to his team that they should concentrate on getting the best result for Nicholas Latifi
Ocon - yes the win was a 'gift' but he had to stay at the front.
Alonso - perhaps his driving was becoming dangerous in the later 'defences' against Hamilton but he did the best for the team
Hamilton - love him or not; what a race! From a distant last to third (or second depending on Seb's penalty)

Zeros
Obviously Bottas should be at the top of this list, but no; top of the list has to be Horner. He seems to be hell-bent on backing up the meme of the UK Red Bull advert; Red Bull gives you whingers! He actually said that Mercedes had a fantastic team strategy of taking out both Red Bulls! Also that he is going to seek legal action to get Mercedes to cover the RBR costs. He seems to have missed the point that it was an accident and that Bottas actually hit the McLaren. Also that McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes themselves will have huge rebuild costs.
However, close second - Bottas. I have some sympathy that he was squeezed and then had two cars take his downforce but (almost) everyone else managed to stop.
That brings us to Stroll. Possibly even more of a 'rookie' error than Bottas.



Offline rmassart

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2021, 03:29:26 PM »
I think that sums it up pretty well.

Another Zero would be the position in the pits of the Mercedes garage. I think theirs is the first once entering the pits.  I always thought the champions were at the exit of the pit lane, to avoid them getting stuck due to unsafe releases.  I understood this is the reason they didn't pull Hamilton on for tire changes on the restart.  He would have pulled into the pits, had his tires changed and then have to wait for the entire field to go by before being released. Sure he would probably not have ended up at the back, but would certainly have lost the lead, and they probably weren't expecting everyone to come in.

So, why is the Mercedes pit at the entry, not at the exit?

Online Jericoke

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2021, 03:44:49 PM »
I think that sums it up pretty well.

Another Zero would be the position in the pits of the Mercedes garage. I think theirs is the first once entering the pits.  I always thought the champions were at the exit of the pit lane, to avoid them getting stuck due to unsafe releases.  I understood this is the reason they didn't pull Hamilton on for tire changes on the restart.  He would have pulled into the pits, had his tires changed and then have to wait for the entire field to go by before being released. Sure he would probably not have ended up at the back, but would certainly have lost the lead, and they probably weren't expecting everyone to come in.

So, why is the Mercedes pit at the entry, not at the exit?

The champion pit box is usually the first.  They can drive straight in without dodging other teams' mechanics, and for 'unsafe release', basically they only have to worry about cars that have actually entered the pit lane, anyone still slowing isn't part of the concern, so there's only a few dozen metres worth lane they have to monitor.

There are a few races where they don't get this spot, and I'm not sure why.  I think Monaco they get the last box, and one of the mid east ones they're in the middle.  I think that has to do with making the champions pit visible to the crowd.

Online Jericoke

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2021, 04:02:03 PM »
Heroes:
Ocon - he fought off a 4 time champion in an equal car for almost an entire race.  We've seen some amazing drives over the years, but he drove like a champion.

Alonso - I hate throw Ricciardo under the proverbial bus, but watching Alonso defend against Hamilton while Ricciardo defend against Verstappen, you see why Alonso is a two time champion, and why Ricciardo is going to finish his career as an also ran.  Alonso knew exactly where to put his car.  His moves were planned out three turns in advance.  He knew exactly what Hamilton was capable of, he knew exactly where Hamilton would be aggressive, and where he would be cautious.  Ricciardo, on the other hand, relies on skill.  He's got prodigious skill, but he was holding on by his teeth turn by turn, instead of creating a strategy to keep a broken car with a desperate racer behind him.  I don't often agree with the 'driver of the day' vote, but Alonso put on an absolute clinic, and was only passed when he finally made a mistake.

Williams - double points finish on a tricky day.  Formula 1 is about taking advantage of any opening, and they did it.  I hope this is something they can build on.

Mercedes - Not bringing Hamilton in on the restart might have been a mistake, but without knowing what would happen if he did come in, it was the safe call, just not so good in hindsight.  But, with that mistake out of the way, getting Hamilton on the podium through strategy as absolutely fantastic.  Alonso really did take the win away from Mercedes, and I don't think there's anything that they could have done about it.

Bottas - okay, not REALLY a hero, but he did create a memorable race with several epic battles at a 'follow the leader' circuit.  Sometimes they're not the hero they want, but the hero the fans deserve.

Zeroes - Basically anyone who finished was a hero, and anyone DNF, even Bottas and Stroll, was mostly because of a wet weather racing incident, so not zeroes.  I do think that all the talk about Hamilton/Verstappen's Silverstone crash has caused everyone to think twice, which you can't afford to do in an F1 car.  Bottas and Stroll had bad luck, which they shared with others, but I really think it was bad luck that could have hit anyone.  (I do think the penalties were fair though)

Alfa Romeo - any time Mazepin DNF's and it's YOUR fault, you've really f'd up.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 05:50:35 PM »
I think that sums it up pretty well.

Another Zero would be the position in the pits of the Mercedes garage. I think theirs is the first once entering the pits.  I always thought the champions were at the exit of the pit lane, to avoid them getting stuck due to unsafe releases.  I understood this is the reason they didn't pull Hamilton on for tire changes on the restart.  He would have pulled into the pits, had his tires changed and then have to wait for the entire field to go by before being released. Sure he would probably not have ended up at the back, but would certainly have lost the lead, and they probably weren't expecting everyone to come in.

So, why is the Mercedes pit at the entry, not at the exit?

Teams choose their pit boxes at the start of the weekend, championship winner first.

So Mercedes is indeed responsible for this error.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Andy B

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 11:17:28 PM »

So, why is the Mercedes pit at the entry, not at the exit?

Teams choose their pit boxes at the start of the weekend, championship winner first.

So Mercedes is indeed responsible for this error.

To my understanding a team's position in the pit lane is determined by where they finished in the championship the previous year. The defending champions have their pit boxes at one end of the pit lane (which end varies from race to race), and then it goes along in championship order until the team that finished last the previous year have their pit boxes at the opposite end of the pit lane.

FIA Sporting Regulation 28 PIT ENTRY, PIT LANE AND PIT EXIT - article 28.5 states: - The FIA will allocate garages and an area in the pit lane on a strictly equal basis where each Competitor may work and, within each of these designated garage areas, one position where pit stops during both practice and the race may be carried out.

It took me ages to find that there maybe more somewhere but I was loosing the will to live!
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline monty

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2021, 09:02:44 AM »
Quote
I hate throw Ricciardo under the proverbial bus, but watching Alonso defend against Hamilton while Ricciardo defend against Verstappen, you see why Alonso is a two time champion, and why Ricciardo is going to finish his career as an also ran
Jeri; I have to leap to Ricciardo's defence - his car was wrecked. There were lots of comments about how well Verstappen did with a damaged car but I understand that Ricciardo's was almost as bad.
 
and
Quote
Alfa Romeo - any time Mazepin DNF's and it's YOUR fault, you've really f'd up.

 :DD :DD :DD :good:

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2021, 11:44:14 AM »

So, why is the Mercedes pit at the entry, not at the exit?

Teams choose their pit boxes at the start of the weekend, championship winner first.

So Mercedes is indeed responsible for this error.

To my understanding a team's position in the pit lane is determined by where they finished in the championship the previous year. The defending champions have their pit boxes at one end of the pit lane (which end varies from race to race), and then it goes along in championship order until the team that finished last the previous year have their pit boxes at the opposite end of the pit lane.

FIA Sporting Regulation 28 PIT ENTRY, PIT LANE AND PIT EXIT - article 28.5 states: - The FIA will allocate garages and an area in the pit lane on a strictly equal basis where each Competitor may work and, within each of these designated garage areas, one position where pit stops during both practice and the race may be carried out.

It took me ages to find that there maybe more somewhere but I was loosing the will to live!

There's supposed to be no material difference between the pit garages (as in, same amount of garage space for everyone, same amount of allocated outside pit area for everyone and same amount of pit perch for everyone). However, it's impossible to give equal position to every team because otherwise they'd be pitting on top of each other, which is where the championship order comes in. Of course, the FIA in its sole discretion can change the system at any time.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2021, 12:45:07 PM »
Heroes and Zeroes

Heroes

Ocon - Stellar defence of victory.

Alonso - It may not have saved Fernando's position, but his defence against Hamilton, whose car was much faster in the areas of the track where overtaking is feasible, was extremely impressive (and clean).

Williams - Sweet points at last. Well done for taking the opportunity on offer.

Zeroes

The FIA - Firstly, the FIA reprimanded 4 drivers (Sainz, Bottas and both Aston Martin drivers) for wearing "We Race As One" shirts during the national anthem, even though the FIA continues to refuse to cue the transition between the "minute" of solidarity and the anthem correctly and even though Article 1 specifies that the FIA will not engage with politics (meaning that either the T-shirts are permitted at all times during the weekend or none - you can't change the political charging of an item of apparel according to the point of the weekend in which it is worn, short of modifying the item itself). Particularly impressive in the case of Vettel, who at no point wore a "We Race As One" T-shirt this weekend (I know he was wearing a T-shirt during the anthem, but it was rather famously not that one.) That's right, he got a non-appealable penalty (reprimand) for "wearing" a T-shirt he never donned!

The FIA also refused to give a penalty in FP3 for collision in the pit lane to Antonio Giovanazzi or Alfa Romeo, only the standard "unsafe release" penalty of a fine. This despite other pitlane collisions involving unsafe releases resulting in a grid penalty, and an actual penalty having meant to be the standard since the summer break of 2019. (Unsafe releases that don't result in a collision, and aren't in the race, are supposed to be handled with fines).

Just to make it worse, from what I heard described, they did not comply with procedure regarding Vettel's fuel sample (requiring a broken pump be used, which of course did not work correctly). Because of this, and due to the rule breach concerning classification (a lodged appeal means the original position has to be and remain restored until the appeal is settled), I am convinced the FIA is in the wrong, knows it, and is thus engaging in gamesmanship for some reason. (I hesitate to specify why the FIA might have chosen to play games, but I detect a pattern here...)

The FIA's conduct, which broke its own regulations in several places, has encouraged various Hungarian politicians to make complete fools of themselves, and has turned a simple statement of support for oppressed people (which the FIA allegedly supports, and is compatible with Article 1) into the very politicial fuss the FIA is required by law to avoid.

Bottas - Your car is not a bowling ball. (I realise I'm paraphrasing the one driver taken out by somebody else...)

Alfa Romeo - For releasing cars into the paths of competitors. Twice. Please learn from your mistakes. I'm not supposed to feel sorry for Nikita Mazepin (who I wish to note had a perfectly competent weekend - unusual for him, but credit where it's due).
« Last Edit: August 03, 2021, 12:47:53 PM by Alianora La Canta »
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2021, 01:33:11 PM »
A couple to add to those already listed here:

Heroes:

Mick Schumacher - Ended up in P10 after the first lap follies. He did an excellent job of holding some much better cars behind him for quite a while. And doing it cleanly, too. He reminded me of one of my favorite drivers, Jarno Trulli. I can't wait to see him in a competitive car.

Zeroes:

The FIA - Once again, fans woke up Monday morning to find the results scrambled. If I'm reading thing correctly, Vettel is basically getting dinged because of the failure of an FIA provided pump. That's pretty ridiculous even for the Fool In Authority.

One more thought - Maybe the FIA could tell RBR that they'll just deduct the amount of the damage done to the Bulls the past two weeks from the amount that RBR still owes for the damage Max has caused other teams over the past few years.  ;)
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Online Jericoke

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2021, 04:40:15 PM »
Quote
I hate throw Ricciardo under the proverbial bus, but watching Alonso defend against Hamilton while Ricciardo defend against Verstappen, you see why Alonso is a two time champion, and why Ricciardo is going to finish his career as an also ran
Jeri; I have to leap to Ricciardo's defence - his car was wrecked. There were lots of comments about how well Verstappen did with a damaged car but I understand that Ricciardo's was almost as bad.
 

Don't get me wrong, Ricciardo drove brilliantly.  Just when you compared him with Alonso, skill for skill they were equals, but Alonso had more 'racecraft'.  He was planning things out laps ahead, knowing exactly what Hamilton would do, whereas Ricciardo was reacting to Max.

Maybe Alonso has the advantage of a long history with Hamilton, while Ricciardo only has a little experience with Max head to head.  Maybe Ricciardo just didn't trust his damaged car.

I just felt like it was a clear difference between a great racer and a champion.

(To that effect, Hamilton's attack on Alonso was every bit a champion's attack.  His moves were as planned out as Alonso's, and Max was just trying to pass corner over corner.  Similarly, I think Vettel also had a great drive against Ocon, which is why I feel Ocon earned that win)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2021, 08:08:55 PM »
A couple to add to those already listed here:

Heroes:

Mick Schumacher - Ended up in P10 after the first lap follies. He did an excellent job of holding some much better cars behind him for quite a while. And doing it cleanly, too. He reminded me of one of my favorite drivers, Jarno Trulli. I can't wait to see him in a competitive car.

I'm sorry to say that Mick is either 12th or 13th, depending on how Aston Martin's appeal goes. The only car he finished ahead of in the end was Antonio Giovanazzi, the inevitable result of his Haas being so slow.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2021, 01:14:17 PM »
Mick was in P10 after the first lap mass & restart. My point was that everybody that ended up behind, including Max, him had to really work to get by him. They didn't just blow by him like many would have thought. Admittedly, the Hungaroring is a hard place to overtake. Still, Mick did a great job of holding on to each position as long as possible against drivers in greatly superior cars.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2021, 05:51:26 AM »
Mick was in P10 after the first lap mass & restart. My point was that everybody that ended up behind, including Max, him had to really work to get by him. They didn't just blow by him like many would have thought. Admittedly, the Hungaroring is a hard place to overtake. Still, Mick did a great job of holding on to each position as long as possible against drivers in greatly superior cars.

This is very true. Mick did some fantastic defensive work.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Heroes and Zeros - Hungary
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2021, 01:41:19 PM »
I just watch a replay of the start & was reminded of something. A Mercedes seemingly unable to properly slow down going into turn 1 from a standing start. Sound like what happened to Hamilton on the restart at the end of Baku? Maybe Bottas had that switch in the wrong position. Just something to think about.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

 


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