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Author Topic: Suzuka Cancelled  (Read 1211 times)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2021, 10:41:20 AM »
The UK's exemption for Silverstone was controversial, and the spike in cases after the British Grand Prix wasn't exactly a good sign (though the World Cup final the previous weekend, a handful of other exempted events, plus the removal of most restrictions the day after the race confused the picture somewhat).

Some other European venues have allowed spectators in line with social distancing protocols.

It should also be added that most of them require vaccination and/or testing - as far as I know, only Bahrain and the UK have allowed recovery from COVID as an additional exemption method. Until about six weeks ago, it was assumed that nearly everyone with double vaccination was safe from COVID. We know now that this is not true, that it's a risk reduction rather than a risk removal, but I don't think Liberty or Texas is ready for that information. The UK government, on the other hand, might be...
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline John S

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2021, 01:47:39 PM »
To Willy and Alianora, whilst I respect your view on the situation I reckon we've just got to learn to live with covid being around.

Of course there are risks in getting back to our lives pre-pandemic style but all life is a risk, surely?

Vaccination never promised we couldn't catch covid, they've always stated that it enormously reduces the chances of death, or prolonged harm, from covid. I believe these claims are holding up, so with some self restrictions & each of us using whatever personal safeguards we feel comfortable with, we should get on with our lives - this includes sporting events, holidays and all the rest of things we enjoy.

Anyone who doesn't wish to take some risk can self isolate to there hearts content, whilst us others take the chance to put some fun back into our dreary lives.

I've always thought it's how we live our lives and quality of life that counts the most, not how we die, so I'm all for allowing events and travel to start opening up.   
Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline cosworth151

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2021, 01:59:01 PM »
The mayor of Austin says no problem, go ahead & do a double header.

https://racer.com/2021/08/24/austin-mayor-expects-usgp-go-ahead-this-week-open-to-second-race/

BTW, Fox News, the main anti-vax, "it's all a hoax" outlet here in the States, now has a solution. Several of its biggest prime time stars, who preach against the vaccinations constantly, are now promoting ivermectin, a product to de-worm livestock, as a cure for covid. The poison control centers are keeping quite busy.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline lkjohnson1950

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2021, 05:38:32 PM »
As bad or worse than the Covid Pandemic we are experiencing is the Rampant Stupidity pandemic that seems to accompany it.  :fool:
Lonny

Offline Andy B

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2021, 10:26:26 PM »
The mayor of Austin says no problem, go ahead & do a double header.

https://racer.com/2021/08/24/austin-mayor-expects-usgp-go-ahead-this-week-open-to-second-race/

BTW, Fox News, the main anti-vax, "it's all a hoax" outlet here in the States, now has a solution. Several of its biggest prime time stars, who preach against the vaccinations constantly, are now promoting ivermectin, a product to de-worm livestock, as a cure for covid. The poison control centers are keeping quite busy.

Many years ago I used to make Ivermectin and an unknown fact was that it was given away by MSD to African counties for the treatment of river blindness as they would not be able to afford to buy it and distribute it. Does Covid have worms?  :DntKnw: ;)
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Dare

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2021, 11:53:34 PM »
The mayor of Austin says no problem, go ahead & do a double header.

https://racer.com/2021/08/24/austin-mayor-expects-usgp-go-ahead-this-week-open-to-second-race/

BTW, Fox News, the main anti-vax, "it's all a hoax" outlet here in the States, now has a solution. Several of its biggest prime time stars, who preach against the vaccinations constantly, are now promoting ivermectin, a product to de-worm livestock, as a cure for covid. The poison control centers are keeping quite busy.

Many years ago I used to make Ivermectin and an unknown fact was that it was given away by MSD to African counties for the treatment of river blindness as they would not be able to afford to buy it and distribute it. Does Covid have worms?  :DntKnw: ;)


Was the Ivermectin a dose for humans. Here there taking it
made for animals. Big difference in dosage
"The
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."
--
Thomas
Jefferson

Offline Andy B

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2021, 08:04:18 AM »
The mayor of Austin says no problem, go ahead & do a double header.

https://racer.com/2021/08/24/austin-mayor-expects-usgp-go-ahead-this-week-open-to-second-race/

BTW, Fox News, the main anti-vax, "it's all a hoax" outlet here in the States, now has a solution. Several of its biggest prime time stars, who preach against the vaccinations constantly, are now promoting ivermectin, a product to de-worm livestock, as a cure for covid. The poison control centers are keeping quite busy.

Many years ago I used to make Ivermectin and an unknown fact was that it was given away by MSD to African counties for the treatment of river blindness as they would not be able to afford to buy it and distribute it. Does Covid have worms?  :DntKnw: ;)


Was the Ivermectin a dose for humans. Here there taking it
made for animals. Big difference in dosage

It was a High Potency Steroid made for animal health but animal health products are made and regulated the same as manufacturing for human use. Once manufactured their use does change as more gets known about it.
It's use includes and is not restricted to: -
Ivermectin is a medication that is used to treat parasite infestations.
In humans, this includes head lice, scabies, river blindness, strongyloidiasis, trichuriasis, ascariasis, and lymphatic filariasis. In veterinary medicine, it is used to prevent and treat heartworm and acariasis, among other indications.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 08:05:57 AM by Andy B »
Once you have retired every day is a Saturday!

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2021, 10:15:30 PM »
To Willy and Alianora, whilst I respect your view on the situation I reckon we've just got to learn to live with covid being around.

Of course there are risks in getting back to our lives pre-pandemic style but all life is a risk, surely?

That is an extremely bad strategy, given that we now know that 11.5% of people with COVID who don't end up in hospital for the COVID, end up there within the next 6 months with severe neurological or psychiatric problems (the figure for those hospitalised wasn't a statistically significant amount more). That's not counting people who get Long COVID or other respiratory problems (which were specifically excluded from that research) or people whose neurological/psychiatric illnesses didn't result in a diagnosis within 6 months (there's a 3-year waiting list for non-hospital-grade mental illness in my area, people with minor symptoms aren't admitted to the waiting list, and my area was one of the ones covered by this research).

There's already a 5-million-patient waiting list for non-emergency hospital interventions in the UK (that's 1 in 13 people, for anyone keeping score). I'm on that list, as are several other people I know. The more people go with the "live with COVID and assume it's forever" strategy, the longer we will have to wait and the more likely it is that COVID will kill me (and possibly some of the others) regardless of my/our precautions - due to being unable to get treatment (for example, my condition isn't urgent but there is a limit to how long it's possible to delay and it still be possible to treat) due to other people's refusal to take the necessary precautions to avoid getting COVID.

By the way, it looks like the Texas double-header isn't happening (hardly surprising, given it's likely the UK government will bar the UK-based teams from going there, Brazil and Mexico without quarantining afterwards and cancelling a round is easier than cancelling two).

Human ivermectin does not work against COVID (this has been researched - some anecdontal data suggested it might have been worthwhile, hence the internet gossip and research that have since become mis-aligned) and animal ivermectin for a human COVID case is worse than not treating COVID at all.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline John S

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2021, 01:39:03 PM »
To Willy and Alianora, whilst I respect your view on the situation I reckon we've just got to learn to live with covid being around.

Of course there are risks in getting back to our lives pre-pandemic style but all life is a risk, surely?

 The more people go with the "live with COVID and assume it's forever" strategy, the longer we will have to wait and the more likely it is that COVID will kill me (and possibly some of the others) regardless of my/our precautions - due to being unable to get treatment (for example, my condition isn't urgent but there is a limit to how long it's possible to delay and it still be possible to treat) due to other people's refusal to take the necessary precautions to avoid getting COVID.


Alia, I have every sympathy and regard for both you and everyone else on hospital waiting lists and hope you all get treated in not to distant future. However your response about how Covid virus can be eliminated is sadly missing from your otherwise informative reply.

Flu was a mass killer in 1920 on the same scale, or maybe worse than the current pandemic if you just count known deaths around the world, but we now manage Flu viruses and have had to learn to live with them.

Those of us putting forward the proposition that we have to learn to live with covid are not advocating no precautions, rather we are suggesting individuals will have to take increased responsibility for their own safety precautions and well being. Even if this means some people being left with little choice than to stay mostly in a self imposed lockdown.

Before anyone throws human/disability rights into this there's no precedent for limiting or restricting a population at large to level up for alleged discrimination. Balancing provisions against discrimination seek to assist levelling up for affected parties towards median, rather than bringing general median down lower.   

Obviously some official rules will still need to stay in place for all of us, e.g. wearing masks on public transport, being tested before being allowed into hospital for elective/planned/investigative treatments, or if any destination requires isolation for arrivals, etc.

It's also possible on odd occasions there may well have to be more emergency rules, even lockdowns, on a short term localised basis should Covid threatens to overwhelm an area/town/region.

Racing is life - everything else is just waiting. (Steve McQueen)

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2021, 03:55:11 PM »
If everyone obeyed a worldwide 3-week lockdown, there would be no more COVID (and it would also remove all other airborne viruses from humanity).

Good luck getting that organised worldwide, or even in most developed countries, but it's certainly feasible for populations that commit to it together, have a reasonable amount of wealth to start with, and have a mostly enforceable border (e.g. the UK).

The next best thing (this one is possible for every nation) is "breaker lockdowns" buying small windows where it's safe(r) to do things. The more carefully people actually obey the lockdowns and the fewer risks they take between times, the longer those windows become and - eventually - we can have something akin to the common cold, or possibly even something that can be treated like measles instead of the current "evade and hope" if we're lucky. However, even this plan imposes a maximum risk level that people collectively can take before things get worse. This is the path the Western world took for flu, by the way.

Since lots of places refuse to do even that, the next option is for people to deliberately run their lives as low-risk as possible given the demands placed on their lives: only accept socially-distanced, well-ventilated locations (this must include the "sqaush points" such as gates and toilets when discussing mass events), always using masks correctly except where contradindicated, washing hands with soap or alcohol thoroughly every time, getting vaccinated if possible. And yes, that means everyone, not just the ones who feel like it. Very eventually, this is likely to weaken the virus to the point where vaccines can hit measles-like effectiveness.

Finally, there's requiring everyone to limit risk. Which yes, still requires high-risk stuff to be off-limits. This has the longest time period before it's safe to do things. The less strict the requirements, the longer it takes and the more risk of variants with even more vaccine escape than Delta.

This is why I didn't give a solution - there's several solutions, I think most people by this point know what they are, it's up to people collectively to pick one. Note that the earlier options are cheaper and mean less cumulative loss of freedom, but are harder to co-ordinate. If the answers is "no to all of the above", then you'll likely have to live with perhaps 6-7% of people disabled due to things like heart attacks, strokes, psychiatric problems and other things like that (assuming half of the people who have that happen die, and before counting the respiratory stuff that's usually considered "Long COVID", or disability due to non-COVID sources). That's going to curtail a lot of people's freedoms - quite likely everyone still alive by that point.

Yes, there are precedents for limiting and restricting entire populations to level up for discrimination. Several equality laws in the UK, and the ADA in the USA, are among examples of this. Also, when everyone has the same requirement and some happen to need that requirement more than others, arguments against restrictions based on discrimination tend not to work so well.

(While I get that a lot of people are advocating increased personal responsibility for risk, from what I've seen the majority of humans are incapable of that with regard to even the most basic policies. Apart from the vaccines, only enforced restrictions from people more powerful than them helped with that. I would go further but suspect it would bring the forum into over-political territory).
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 04:07:04 PM by Alianora La Canta »
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline rmassart

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2021, 06:35:37 AM »
If everyone obeyed a worldwide 3-week lockdown, there would be no more COVID (and it would also remove all other airborne viruses from humanity).

This has been my thinking for a long time now. If we'd all just stayed at home for 3 weeks it would have solved the problem. China is pretty much the only country to achieve something close to this and they managed to eradicate the virus for a while (at least as much as we can trust their official figures).  It has now returned, I assume through contact with the outside world and I think realistically a complete three week lockdown can't be done. Even with the army on the street - and that would kind of show it's not a 100% lockdown.  There will always be "leakages" otherwise you would be telling someone with a stroke in week 1 that they have to wait a couple more weeks for the ambulance to arrive.

Also the draconian way this was implemented in China is in my view somehow worse than the virus, as illiberal as I agree that sounds. The virus is being used by governments around the world, including the "free west", to implement temporary laws to control our lives. We all know these temporary laws eventually become permanent.  I am not an anti-vaxxer and have been fully vaccinated and keep on insisting that my relatives in more sceptical countries get on with being vaccinated. I actually think being not being jabbed should be illegal (which I agree goes against my point on controlling our lives). But we all live in societies which are based on common ideals and governments can't just force through rules putting those ideals at risk or we risk waking up in China one day. However, also, we can't just do what we want. We can't just put others at risk through our own personal views.

Which leads to the point of accepting some responsibility for the risks you are willing to take. This is OK for known risks, such as sky diving. No one else is at risk if your parachute fails to open.  But essentially telling person A they have to stay at home because person B might be carrying a highly infectious and deadly virus and refuses to get vaccinated is not what I consider to be living in a society.

So I think this should be turned round. Rather than telling the at risk population to stay home, make the unvaccinated to stay home. You can do what you want in your own home. But not on a crowded bus or in busy restaurant.

Sorry for being way off topic. Hopefully the Dutch GP will give us some actual racing to talk about!

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #26 on: September 01, 2021, 12:09:57 AM »
If the army is on the street for enforcement purposes, then by definition it's not a 100% lockdown (who's locking down the army, when there's no COVID-safe way to physically restrain a citizen from doing what they want)? I presented the worldwide 3-week lockdown because that would be the requirement to get rid of COVID in the shortest theoretically possible time. However, it would require everyone to comply voluntarily, and it would require a lot of preparation that many people really aren't in a position to do even if willing in principle (for example, rock-solid COVID-safe deliveries for everyone).

China managed a substantial lockdown in parts of the country, but it was never total and never across the whole country. They also made a hash of the release process every time, leading to at least two further waves (including their current one). It's definitely realistic to suggest that better lockdowns are possible than what China managed - potentially without having to involve the army at all.

I'm convinced that a lot of anti-vaxxers would be more likely to get vaccinated if they had an open and honest conversation with their doctor, over a cup of tea/coffee/preferred beverage, that focused on accurately filling information gaps and giving cogent personalised advice, rather than making vaccination mandatory. There are also some people who can't get vaccinated. However, we can all be careful with our risk profiles (which includes getting vaccinated if possible, as well as masking where possible and socially distancing).

By the way, there were 15 positive COVID cases in the paddock at Spa this week, out of 2000 or so people.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline monty

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #27 on: September 01, 2021, 09:27:57 AM »
Japan is like Australia and New Zealand - they thought they could keep COVID out rather than vaccinate against it. I'm not sure why there are so many negative comments about China. By business has three factories in China (in three different regions). When COVID first hit, the Government closed the borders and told the people to stay at home and they stayed at home. This didn't need police enforcement and certainly not army enforcement. The Government then arranged a fantastic plan of Vaccination which everyone accepted. When new cases reduced, the Government allowed locals to travel internally and everyone got back to work. In a Country of 1.2 billion people they have hardly any new cases. Of course China is not as free as the west but I have not met anyone during my 30years of travelling in China that feels oppressed. They follow rules because they are brought up to respect authority.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #28 on: September 01, 2021, 01:48:16 PM »
Interesting. The information I was getting from China was that the current situation is as bad as it is in much of Europe despite the precautions.
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter)
http://alianoralacanta.tumblr.com (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline monty

Re: Suzuka Cancelled
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2021, 02:35:03 PM »
Of course it is impossible to be sure if 'reported' information is correct (I read an interesting article recently that suggested the UK is the only country in the World that is reporting accurately). However, China is reporting approximately 30 new cases per day (in >1.2billion population!!!). Most regions are considered completely safe but some parts of Shanghai and Jiangsu are at 'Medium Risk' level. China has administered over 2billion vaccinations and they are just opening up vaccinations for 12 to 14year olds. None of our staff have had the disease and none of them know anyone that has had the disease. Currently the only way anyone can visit China is to isolate in a Government Hotel for 2weeks after entry (I have chosen not to visit - the hotels I normally stay in are 'basic' and not tailored for westerners so I dread to think what a Government selected hotel would be like!)

 


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