Over spending penalty

[cosworth151]

The penalty must be a sporting one, not a financial one. If the penalty is purely financial then the cap will no longer serve a purpose. The winning team will still be the one with the deepest pockets, just that they will also have to cover the fines ...

I agree. The rich teams would just consider any fines to be a cost of doing business.

When George Steinbrenner owned the New York Yankees, he constantly exceeded Major League Baseball's salary cap by huge amounts. He'd just pay the fine, laugh and do it again the next season.

[Jericoke]

The penalty must be a sporting one, not a financial one. If the penalty is purely financial then the cap will no longer serve a purpose. The winning team will still be the one with the deepest pockets, just that they will also have to cover the fines ...

I agree. The rich teams would just consider any fines to be a cost of doing business.

When George Steinbrenner owned the New York Yankees, he constantly exceeded Major League Baseball's salary cap by huge amounts. He'd just pay the fine, laugh and do it again the next season.

In baseball the 'fine' would then be distributed to the teams with the lowest salaries.

Maybe Red Bull should pay a fine they can easily afford, but it goes to teams that need it, not the FIA.  Williams, brought to you by Red Bull.

How about the ultimate sporting penalty?  The FIA seizes the Red Bull cars and lets everyone have a turn to tear it down and see how it works.

[lkjohnson1950]

You might be venturing into patent and copywrite territory there. Not sure if that applies to racing car design, but it might.

[Dare]

Sounds like turning F1 into a spec series

[Jericoke]

You might be venturing into patent and copywrite territory there. Not sure if that applies to racing car design, but it might.

F1 cars aren't patented because a patent must be publicly registered with drawings that illustrate the concept being patented.  It would be very easy for a competing team to take the patent and change it just enough to create 'new' design that works.  That's why the teams are so careful about anyone getting a good look at the cars.

https://www.iposgoode.ca/2021/05/formula-1-living-in-a-patent-free-world/

Copyright would apply to aesthetic, non functional part of the cars.  Like a scarlet F1 car could be copyrighted (if Ferrari had devised the scheme, not copied the national racing colour, so bad example)

[cosworth151]

Most radical new improvements seem to filter down through the field pretty quickly anyway. Remember the double diffusers? Ross Brawn introduced it at the beginning of the 2009 season and ran away from the field. By summer break several other teams had them.

[Willy]

The second a team threatens to leave the sport we see a furry of handwringing and folks going on about how the sport will not survive if (Red Bull, Ferarri, Honda, McLaren  PICK ONE) leave.
Garbage.
The sport will continue and someone will rise to fill the gap.
No team is so important that all others need to adjust to placate morons and empty threats.
I for one would be thrilled to see the Red Bull(sh*t) gone.

[Jericoke]

The second a team threatens to leave the sport we see a furry of handwringing and folks going on about how the sport will not survive if (Red Bull, Ferarri, Honda, McLaren  PICK ONE) leave.
Garbage.
The sport will continue and someone will rise to fill the gap.
No team is so important that all others need to adjust to placate morons and empty threats.
I for one would be thrilled to see the Red Bull(sh*t) gone.

in the 90s and 2000s, 'Ferrari' was basically synonymous with F1 racing outside of the core fans.  Losing Ferrari would be a big blow to the sport then, a smaller one now.

Losing any one team, even Ferrari, or Mercedes, wouldn't be as big a problem now.  The issue would be losing two teams in Red Bull and Alpha Tauri.  My understanding is that 18 cars are required for a championship to happen (hence Brawn being allowed to race with a car that likely would have been declared illegal had they done the full winter testing with everyone else).  Since F1 has been so reluctant to add another team, it really does give Red Bull the ability to hold the sport over a barrel like no one else can.  (Even if Andretti was given a fast track to enter the sport, would Red Bull sell them facilities to do so, or just hold them dormant out of spite?)

Certainly F1 could bridge the issue by allowing three car teams, or give teams a temporary ability to run two teams from one facility.  (Imagine a Ferrari B team run out of Modeno while a second facility was built)

[rmassart]

What I don't get is why RedBull are seen as one of the historical teams who get financial payment (or maybe that had stopped now..). For me they are still a very new team. Maybe I'm showing my age...

For Ferrari, I can understand this point as I think they are the only team to compete in every single F1 season. However except for the Schumacher years I've always considered them as just not quite good enough. Confirmed again this season. I started watching in the mid 80s I always considered Williams and McLaren as synonymous with F1. Again this is a factor of my age. Maybe if I was a decade older I would get the importance of Ferrari, but to me they've simply never been good enough be considered in any way indispensable to F1. Schumacher (and especially Brawn and Byrne) changed that for a while, but even that was now almost 20 years ago.

But for me no team is bigger than F1. And if the guys running F1 actually believe there is such a team, perhaps they should not be running F1!

[lkjohnson1950]

Ferrari has won 16 WCC, 15 WDC, and 241 races
McLaren has won 8 WCC, 12 WDC, and 183 races
Mercedes has won 8 WCC, 9 WDC, and 124 races
Williams has won 9 WCC, 7 WDC, and 114 races
These are the only teams with more than 100 race wins

[John S]

We have to accept that all teams signed up to the new cost cap rules on the basis that Minor breaches - up to 5% (yeah I know hardly seems minor does it) - are treated leniently; so why all the bloody fuss from Toto and Binotto.

I know these Minor & Major breach definitions were needed to get the Cost Cap regs over the line some years back, but those regs are now there and wanting bigger punishments is hypocritical. Be interesting to know perhaps just which teams dragged their heels the most when Cost Cap rules were being formulated and pushed through.

To me some of this comes down to creative accounting, I'm sure all the top teams will have been up to it in their submissions to FIA. However RBR may have submitted differing accounting method, causing FIA bean counters to cry foul, or at least be taking a differing view.

Alternatively RBR may have interpreted allowances and exclusions totally differently to Merc & Ferrari and how FIA expected. We all know tax areas & authorities interpret things in various ways when setting tax bills under the same laws. All too often courts have to sort out which side, taxman or business accountants, are in the right.

Sure a penalty must be applied if RBR either accepts the overspend, or takes it through appeal processes - which could take months - and is still found non compliant.

But please lets keep it within the regs rather than have this loud cacophony from a Kangaroo Court in social & other media dictating ridiculous punishments.     

[rmassart]

Ferrari has won 16 WCC, 15 WDC, and 241 races
McLaren has won 8 WCC, 12 WDC, and 183 races
Mercedes has won 8 WCC, 9 WDC, and 124 races
Williams has won 9 WCC, 7 WDC, and 114 races
These are the only teams with more than 100 race wins

Thanks for these stats. Looking at Ferrari, they are at the top for two reasons:

1. They have been racing since the start. No other manufacturer has done so.
2. It is distorted by the Schumacher period

Equally Mercedes is distorted by the recent Hamilton years, but then no one is claiming F1 can't live without Mercedes. And RedBull, well they're not even in the top 4...

[rmassart]

Sure a penalty must be applied if RBR either accepts the overspend, or takes it through appeal processes - which could take months - and is still found non compliant.   

Well apparently the rules state something along the lines of:

These are a public reprimand, deduction of constructors’ championship points, deduction of drivers’ championship points, suspension from one or more stages of a competition (excluding the race), limitations on aerodynamic or other testing, or a reduction of the cost cap.

It doesn't take a lot of points to change last years outcome. Equally applying a few points to this years outcome has no effect. So teams will probably decide the 5% cost cap is worth breaking if the chances are the points deductions have no effect....

I agree that the teams signed up to this. But given that ultimately only one team seems to be falling foul of the rule, and they happen to be last years champions, most team took the rules seriously. The penalty should then also be serious.

[Dare]

Ferrari has won 16 WCC, 15 WDC, and 241 races
McLaren has won 8 WCC, 12 WDC, and 183 races
Mercedes has won 8 WCC, 9 WDC, and 124 races
Williams has won 9 WCC, 7 WDC, and 114 races
These are the only teams with more than 100 race wins



Red Bull came from the Jackie Stewart and Jaguar racing teams.
They didn't become Red Bull till 2004 which seems they have been
pretty successful in a short time.

[lkjohnson1950]

Ferrari has won 16 WCC, 15 WDC, and 241 races
McLaren has won 8 WCC, 12 WDC, and 183 races
Mercedes has won 8 WCC, 9 WDC, and 124 races
Williams has won 9 WCC, 7 WDC, and 114 races
These are the only teams with more than 100 race wins

Thanks for these stats. Looking at Ferrari, they are at the top for two reasons:

1. They have been racing since the start. No other manufacturer has done so.
2. It is distorted by the Schumacher period

Equally Mercedes is distorted by the recent Hamilton years, but then no one is claiming F1 can't live without Mercedes. And RedBull, well they're not even in the top 4...

McLaren is equally distorted by the Senna/Prost era
Williams has had many drivers, but dominated with the FW14 series.
R/B is in the 80's and I think Lotus is in the 70's