collapse

* Welcome

Welcome to GPWizard F1 Forum!

GPWizard is the friendliest F1 forum you'll find anywhere. You have a host of new like-minded friends waiting to welcome you.

So what are you waiting for? Becoming a member is easy and free! Take a couple seconds out of your day and register now. We guarantee, you wont be sorry you did.

Click Here to become a full Member for Free

* User Info

 
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

* Newsletter

GPWizard F1 Forum Newsletter Email address:
Weekly
Fortnightly
Monthly

* Grid Game Deadlines

Qualifying

Race

* Shoutbox

Refresh History
  • Wizzo: Hi Andy, ill look at this tomorrow.  Thanks
    May 19, 2020, 10:08:09 PM
  • Andy B: Hi Wiz, I have tried to make a donation using my UK bank account but PayPal will not accept the card as I live in NZ and have a UK card? This is not your problem but is there a way I can just pay directly with a Visa card?
    May 18, 2020, 10:41:51 PM
  • Wizzo: GPW will be down from approximately 13:30 tomorrow until the migration to the new server is complete. Once the site is "live" on the new server it could take another 24-48 hours to become accessible to all users.
    May 14, 2020, 03:18:44 PM
  • Wizzo: I've made some changes to GPW. Try it now
    April 29, 2020, 02:33:08 PM
  • lkjohnson1950: Hey Wiz, Quarantine Diaries doesn't display right for me. The bottom is cut off of the page and I can't see any post after Alia's.
    April 28, 2020, 08:13:44 PM
  • Dare: Hope your doing ok Braden...just now saw your comment. Don't be a stanger
    April 20, 2020, 04:04:18 AM
  • BraydenSoh: Hi everyone! How's life? Hope everybody still doing well!
    April 13, 2020, 03:48:17 PM
  • Wizzo: Session problem now solved. Thanks
    February 05, 2020, 09:43:41 AM
  • John S: Hey! Anyone else notice the huge number of guests on the site today - Wow!!  :yahoo:
    December 03, 2019, 08:38:00 PM
  • Wizzo: Please note: Japanese qualifying times have been updated.
    October 11, 2019, 02:05:42 PM
  • Scott: I'll be in chat for a change...hope some others will make it too.
    September 07, 2019, 08:58:16 PM
  • cosworth151: This Sunday is Mothers Day here in the States. I'll be helping with the free breakfast we do at our Amvets Post every M's Day, so I'll be popping in and out of the Chat Room
    May 10, 2019, 03:57:04 PM
  • Wizzo: Mothers day here in the UK so I will be absent in the chat room today. Have fun!
    March 31, 2019, 10:47:48 AM
  • Jericoke: For newcomers to GPWizard, make sure you check out the live chat during the race!  It's the best way to turn a dull race into a great time, and the cherry on top of a great race!  (I won't be able to attend Aussie though)
    March 15, 2019, 07:48:58 PM
  • Wizzo: The 2019 Grid Game is now open. Please check out the new rules before entering.
    February 17, 2019, 04:56:33 PM
  • John S: Glad the site is back online, we don't know how much we like it til it's gone. Thanks Wizzo.
    February 02, 2019, 09:19:33 PM
  • Calman: Glad to see you back online Wizzo.  Did the issue point to a corrupted MySQL Data Table?
    February 02, 2019, 08:53:13 PM
  • Wizzo: I apologise for the downtime. Normal service has been resumed.
    February 02, 2019, 07:53:12 PM
  • Calman: Looks like the forum is experiencing Database/Server Issues! ... will check in later tonight.
    February 01, 2019, 01:11:41 AM
  • Calman: Thanks for getting back to me on that Wizzo ... I'll look at my donations when it's re-activated, thanks!
    December 14, 2018, 09:06:39 PM

* Who's Online

  • Dot Guests: 43
  • Dot Hidden: 0
  • Dot Users: 1
  • Dot Users Online:

* Top Posters

cosworth151 cosworth151
15368 Posts
Scott Scott
13924 Posts
Dare Dare
12399 Posts
John S John S
10224 Posts
Ian Ian
9685 Posts

* IntentsGP Advert

pre-erected f1 camping & glamping with intentsGP

Author Topic: No Penalty for McLaren  (Read 4799 times)

Offline f1box

No Penalty for McLaren
« on: July 26, 2007, 03:49:27 PM »
FIA Press Release:


World Motor Sport Council - Decision
26.07.2007     
   :
An extraordinary meeting of the World Motor Sport Council was held in Paris on 26 July, 2007. The following decision was taken:

“The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code. However, there is insufficient evidence that this information was used in such a way as to interfere improperly with the FIA Formula One World Championship. We therefore impose no penalty.

“But if it is found in the future that the Ferrari information has been used to the detriment of the championship, we reserve the right to invite Vodafone McLaren Mercedes back in front of the WMSC where it will face the possibility of exclusion from not only the 2007 championship but also the 2008 championship.

“The WMSC will also invite Mr Stepney and Mr Coughlan to show reason why they should not be banned from international motor sport for a lengthy period and the WMSC has delegated authority to deal with this matter to the legal department of the FIA.”


The BBC quote Ron Dennis as saying that he's "not completely comfortable with the outcome but the punishment fits the crime" and goes on to report that a formal statement for McLaren will be issued later.
 

David
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 03:52:53 PM by f1box »


"Racing is life ....... everything before and after is just waiting"

www.f1box.co.uk - independent motorsport memorabilia retailer

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 04:47:40 PM »
The MA F I A will never admit they cocked up in the first place.

I have a feeling this is not the last we will hear about this issue by Ron Dennis.

Mc Laren statement just out. Off to read. Back later. :yahoo:
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline f1box

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 06:33:36 PM »
... and Ferrari's view!

"This decision legitimises dishonest behaviour in F1 and sets a very serious precedent," said a Ferrari statement.

"We feel this is highly prejudicial to the credibility of the sport."

"Ferrari ... finds it incomprehensible that violating the fundamental principle of sporting honesty does not have, as a logical and inevitable consequence, the application of a sanction,"

"In fact, the decision of the World Council signifies that possession, knowledge at the very highest level and use of highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner and the acquiring of confidential information over the course of several months, represent violations that do not carry any punishment.

"This is all the more serious as it has occurred in a sport like F1 in which small details make all the difference."


Only part of the statement above

David
"Racing is life ....... everything before and after is just waiting"

www.f1box.co.uk - independent motorsport memorabilia retailer

Offline RedFive

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 06:34:13 PM »
Even Ferrari are trying to blame their points deficit to McLaren on the whole saga.
According to the Scuderia's legal team:-
   
Quote
"The difference between the two teams is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents,"
Now as far as I'm aware the design for the MP4/22 would have been finalised last year. Now seeing as these documents only came into Coughlan's possession sometime in April I fail to see how that can be the case. Those that have even a modicum of technical understanding must, surely, realise that even if McLaren sanctioned this, that it is highly unlikely that the information would be of any use to them, bearing in mind that the design philosophy of the two cars would be completely different.
That kind of data would be more of a help in the case, say, of someone who was looking for employment elsewhere and wanted to base their 2008 chassis on something proven. Especially if their potential employer's current chassis was woefully underperforming (I wonder who that could, potentially, be ? ;)). It's not like McLaren really need Ferrari's help in designing a competitive car now is it ?
The more revelations I hear about "Coughlangate", which was "Stepneygate" before that, the more I'm convinced that there's a political agenda on Ferrari's part that may only become clear in time. Maybe then we will be able to see who the real guilty party is.
I LOVE The Smell Of Castrol R In The Morning...

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 06:46:21 PM »

   
Quote
"The difference between the two teams is so close that it is likely that McLaren's superior number of points is a consequence of its chief designer having the Ferrari documents,"


If that isn't a "big headed" Italian statement, I don't know what is.

They must obviously believe that they are the only people capable of building a decent GP car. Big heads.

We need to remind them about people like Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne among other honourable Italian citizens. And we might as well add Nigel Stepney, though he will now have lost his honorary Italian citizenship I suppose.

They will never change. I really do hope Ron doesn't accept the verdict.

Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline RedFive

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 07:01:07 PM »
Having just read the whole of the Ferrari press release I find their arrogance staggering. Have a read and see for yourself. I have also read the McLaren press release, which handily enough was in plain text and therefore copy/pasteable:-
Quote
Following an appearance by McLaren today at the FIA World Motor Sport Council in Paris, a unanimous decision has been taken by the FIA which in McLaren’s opinion is very balanced and fair. McLaren accepts the that the FIA World Motor Sport Council had no alternative other than to find that there was a purely technical breach by reason of the possession of certain information by one individual at his home, without McLaren’s knowledge or authority. McLaren is delighted that the World Motor Sport Council determined that this information was not used and accordingly imposed no sanction whatsoever on the team. McLaren looks forward to continuing its fight in what is the most exciting Drivers’ and Constructors’ World Championship in many years.
It seems that Mclaren have no alternative but to comply with the finding for now. There seems little point in rocking the boat unless further allegations are made.
The Ferrari press release makes it look like a serious judicial travesty has occurred, whereas both the official FIA & the McLaren efforts paint a different picture.
Wasn't it McLaren that invited the FIA to inspect its cars ? Wouldn't Ferrari have instigated the proceedings against McLaren instead of persuing Stepney & Coughlan ? Was McLaren's post Oz resurgence more a case of the revised floor regulations hurting Ferrari more than any other team ? For a team that has excelled using dubious practices in the past, I find it laughable to read the righteous indignation so blatantly displayed  in the press release. Wasn't  it Hamlet's mum who said "I think the Lady doth protest too much" ?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 07:06:19 PM by RedFive »
I LOVE The Smell Of Castrol R In The Morning...

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 07:23:49 PM »
It's all a question of attitude. God is Italian. The pope hangs out in Italy - the vatican actually but that to them will just be a technicality. The Italians are the most intelligent, beautiful, rich, perfect, people in the World. Everybody else is second rate. Italy has the greatest football team in the world - by right, and Ferrari make the fastest cars in the world - by right. Period.

And they believe this. They are totally convinced. They are always right. And nobody should argue.

So with this in mind you can understand better their surprise that the case went against them. I'm looking forward to reading the Italian press tomorrow. Up to this morning Max will have been Jean Todt's best bedfellow. Today he is probably an evil demon.

I know the Italians because we are so close. I have raced there and experienced it first hand. So long as I wasn't winning I was a nice guy. The minute I started winning I had to be cheating. I was protested every time I won. On principle.
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 07:38:05 PM »

Doesn't this picture say it all. :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:
I wonder what Ron just said to Michael.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 08:47:22 PM by johnbull »
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline raindancer

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 08:25:19 PM »
This is probably neither Mclaren doing nor Ferrari's overreaction.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline Chameleon

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 09:53:45 PM »
To me, this is the most telling part of Ferrari's statement:

"In fact, the decision of the World Council signifies that possession, knowledge at the very highest level and use of highly confidential information acquired in an illicit manner and the acquiring of confidential information over the course of several months, represent violations that do not carry any punishment."

In fact, all the WMSC decided was that an employee of McLaren's had the documents at his home (legally that could be taken as the responsibility of the employer) and that it was not possible to prove that they were used in any way by the company.  That is why they imposed no sanctions.

But Ferrari have gone way over the top, implying that McLaren had the documents in their possession, that even the top bosses knew about them and that they used them.  That sounds to me like contempt of court.

To be fair, McLaren also go a little beyond the facts in their statement:

"McLaren accepts the that the FIA World Motor Sport Council had no alternative other than to find that there was a purely technical breach by reason of the possession of certain information by one individual at his home, without McLaren's knowledge or authority.

"McLaren is delighted that the World Motor Sport Council determined that this information was not used and accordingly imposed no sanction whatsoever on the team."

The WMSC merely said that it was impossible to prove that the documents were used, not that they definitely were not used.  In fact, the WMSC is keeping its options open, no doubt for further action if more is revealed in the pending legal cases concerning Coughlan and Stepney.

At least it means we can get back to watching what is proving to be the most interesting season for years and won't have to worry about points deductions, disqualifications, etc. until after it is all over...
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

FW14B

  • Guest
Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2007, 11:11:06 PM »
It seems that the sensible route has been taken here.  But Ferrari are certainly showing how highly they value sportsmanship.  Maybe it can be put to sleep now, but I doubt it, not unless Ferrari manage to overtake McLaren in both championships.

Offline cosworth151

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 02:41:24 AM »
I don't care for the fact that the FIA (Ferrari International Assistance) make no distinction between a Mclaren employee having the files and McLaren itself having the files. I just hope this is the end of it and everybody can get back to racing.

Wait a minute - maybe that's why the "viking horn" wings disappeared: They weren't on the Ferrari plans! If the McLaren's show up at the Hungaroring with those strange wheel discs....... ;)

Cos
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2007, 08:12:25 AM »
Good point about the wheel discs Cossie.

What is copying and how will the FIA define it?

In the next month everyone will have wheel discs. Does that mean everyone is copying. Hell, Chaparral started the wing thing many years ago, now everybody has wings. It's the way things go, but the court decision worries me because basically it is saying to Mc Laren : You must halt all progress on your cars this year and next because if you have anything that looks remotely Ferrari you're out.

I hope Ron does appeal it.
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline Cam

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2007, 02:36:36 PM »
Ferrari's reaction is perfectly reasonable.

F1 is a game of miniscule advantages, the teams spend hundreds of millions of dollars and employ hundreds of people to develop, maintain and protect those advantages.  Mclarens cheif designer has been intimately aware of the Ferrari's advantages since nearly the beginning of the season.  It is naive to think that this knowledge could not be used to influence their cars performance for the better.  These guys are working at a frantic pace, coming up with new ideas and putting them into effect on a daily basis, Coughlan doesnt have to tell anyone where his ideas are coming from.  Its not about directly copying, its about tweaking this, trying this new stuff, interpreting this rule in a particular way.  It could very easily add up to a slight additional advantage on top of all Mclarens own IP, enough to get them ahead, and Ferrari are quite reasonably imputing that this has occurred. 

Re-read the FIA judgment, it says "The WMSC is satisfied that Vodafone McLaren Mercedes was in possession of confidential Ferrari information and is therefore in breach of article 151c of the International Sporting Code" It doesnt say Mike Coughlan was in posession, it says the team was in posession and that they are in breach.  It is a mystery how the team can be in breach of the regulations and receive no sanction whatsoever. 

Put yourself in Ferraris shoes for a minute. If that's too painful, try to imagine the roles reversed, and Ferrari had benefitted from this perplexing decision.
I am a lover of what is, not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality - Byron Katie

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2007, 05:39:31 PM »
Accusing Mc Laren for Coughlan's actions is like accusing Ferrari for Stepney's. They were both employed with the 2 manufacturers when they did what they did, so what's the difference?

To my mind, it was the FIA that cocked up - for a change :nono:. They should have summoned Coughlan, not Mc Laren. If I have an employee that has been cought stealing, even if the stolen goods are found on my property, it's not me that is summoned but him.

I suggest that Max tried to be cleaver, and look good with Ferrari by summoning Mc Laren, and his own council let him down because they are not as warped as him.

I expect we'll hear a few more opinions in the next few days.
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

 


SimplePortal 2.3.6 © 2008-2014, SimplePortal
Menu Editor Pro 1.0 | Copyright 2013, Matthew Kerle