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Author Topic: No Penalty for McLaren  (Read 4888 times)

Offline Chameleon

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2007, 07:37:09 PM »
Quote
I expect we'll hear a few more opinions in the next few days.

You reckon, John?

Hehehe...   ::)
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline Ian

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2007, 09:06:25 PM »
Ferrari showing sportsmanship LOcoolD, I think not, I don't even think they know how to spell the word
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2007, 10:42:34 PM »
I love Mika Salo's comment about spying on Mc laren when he was at Ferrari.

Check it out on Autosport. Brilliant.

And these guys make themselves out to be holier than the Pope.
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline Steven Roy

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2007, 03:34:18 PM »
I have been working away from home with no regular net access but I had to pop in and comment on the outcome (if it is the outcome) of this saga. 

Am I the nly one who thinks Jean Todt's demeanour suggests that he was under the impression that his good buddy Max would deliver a different verdict.  Bear in mind that Max has spent two years touting Todt as his successor/deputy.  Todt looks like he has been sold a lottery ticket that was a guaranteed winner but turned out to be the winning numbers from the week before.

Apparently there is a rule that once the championship results are declared at the end of a season no further legal action can change them so if Ferrari want to pursue their case against McLaren they will have to find a 'court' that moves quickly.

According to Autosport Ron's comment to Schumi on the podium was this must be painful for you.  Doesn't sound like Ronspeak to me.

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2007, 06:01:06 PM »
I wondered where you'd been!

Are you following the Salo saga now. Salo first commented about the clear spying on Mc Laren when he was at Ferrari but has now virtually retracted his statement. In fact his new statement is issued by Ferrari!!!!!!!!!!!

The MAFIA at work, perhaps? I mean the real Mafia this time. The Italian one in Modena, not the one in Paris.
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline raindancer

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2007, 07:11:37 PM »
Come on guys ! We are missing the point here. The point is Mclaren were caught with Ferrari documents. Stupid !!!!!!!!!! I have seen a few cases of espionage ( Industrial) and you don't keep a record or a trail.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline Chameleon

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2007, 12:58:12 AM »
Not quite right, Raindancer.  The WMSC did find McLaren guilty of bringing the sport into disrepute by their association with the Ferrari documents but were unable to prove that anyone apart from Coughlan had sight of them.  Their verdict is almost certainly based on the legal principle that an employer is responsible for the actions of his employee.  And, no matter what Mr Todt may say to the contrary, the court found insufficient evidence to prove that others at McLaren had seen the documents or that McLaren benefited from them.  More evidence may be forthcoming in the court cases pending in Italy and Britain and that is why the WMSC have reserved the right to re-open the case in future.

But I do agree with you that Coughlan was unbelievably stupid in his handling of the matter.  Clearly he was a complete amateur at the game of industrial espionage.

Which at least argues for the fact that this is not common practice at McLaren or, hopefully, the rest of F1.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 05:51:25 PM by Chameleon »
Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

Offline matthew

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2007, 01:04:55 PM »
Come on guys ! We are missing the point here. The point is Mclaren were caught with Ferrari documents. Stupid !!!!!!!!!! I have seen a few cases of espionage ( Industrial) and you don't keep a record or a trail.

if you want to use Ferrari's logic that an Employee of the team and the Team is the very same thing then what you said there is wrong.

McLaren were not caught with Ferraris documents but Ferrari gave mcLaren their documents. :)

if Coughlan=McLaren
Stepney=Ferrari.


McLaren NEVER EVER denied that Coughlan was in possession of the documents. they did however deny any of the rest of their team having seen them and that Coughlan was fired the very same day he told the others about it. if you dont want to believe it then fine, but don't accuse McLaren of dirty play unless YOU (or Ferrari) have proof.

personally i find it a bit fishy that Honda's involvment in all this has been conveniently ignored. Honda made no secret of Coughlan and Stepney wanting to join them while this whole document trading was going on. which clerly makes McLaren not the intended recipient.





also one other thing. remember earlier this year when Spyker were bitching about RBR and STR having identical cars? they said they had blueprints and documents to proove this. why the hell was there no investigation by the FIA in this case ey? its the exact same thing.

also dont forget the toyota issue. and toyot actually built a car that was 100% identical to ferraris. Toyota as a team were never even questioned let alone penalised.

FW14B

  • Guest
Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2007, 09:33:20 PM »
Ferrari showing sportsmanship LOcoolD, I think not, I don't even think they know how to spell the word

I know  :good:, I was being sarcastic.  Ferrari do my head in with their whole attitude to racing.  I want to respect their history and heritage, but they continually just play dirty.  They cheat, then moan at others when they get caught.  This whole situation was a pointless exercise to destable McLaren.

The Stig

  • Guest
Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2007, 09:47:41 PM »
Great points LOcool,but dont you think ...Bernie will deal with the wrong people in the closed season.
They might have a great case,legal ect.But Bernie will see the season out,then penalise teams who have done wrong.
View: the Bigger Picture,with time..He will not upset this GP
Stig.

FW14B

  • Guest
Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2007, 09:53:33 PM »
You make good points Stig.  Does Bernie have the ability though to deal with people?  I think the FIA needs to take a tough stance when dealing with Coughlan, still not sure about Stepney's role in all of this.  I do agree though that it is essential for F1 as a spectacle for this season to continue.  If McLaren had been kicked out, who would really have cared how the season went on other than the Tifosi?  It will drag on though

Offline johnbull

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2007, 10:10:12 PM »
This whole situation was a pointless exercise to destable McLaren.
Thank you friend. That just about sums the whole thing up.
Joe M. Anastasi.
JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
www.johnbullmalta.com

Offline raindancer

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2007, 05:39:35 PM »
WOW ! I really kicked up a strong reactions. Let me try and reply on a point to point. Remember I am a neutral and will probably share another perspective to this whole episode and mind you its just a perspective.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline raindancer

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2007, 05:44:15 PM »
Not quite right, Raindancer.  The WMSC did find McLaren guilty of bringing the sport into disrepute by their association with the Ferrari documents but were unable to prove that anyone apart from Coughlan had sight of them.  Their verdict is almost certainly based on the legal principle that an employer is responsible for the actions of his employer.  And, no matter what Mr Todt may say to the contrary, the court found insufficient evidence to prove that others at McLaren had seen the documents or that McLaren benefited from them.  More evidence may be forthcoming in the court cases pending in Italy and Britain and that is why the WMSC have reserved the right to re-open the case in future.

But I do agree with you that Coughlan was unbelievably stupid in his handling of the matter.  Clearly he was a complete amateur at the game of industrial espionage.

Which at least argues for the fact that this is not common practice at McLaren or, hopefully, the rest of F1.
I couldn't agree more chameleon ! I never hinted that Mclaren used those documents. All I am saying it is very rare for any employee to go to such lengths ( if what they say is true). However the irrefutable fact is that documents were found.
As regards to common practice , let me assure you that a friend of mine runs a company which does $ 20 M in turnover just handling industrial espionage situations.
Automobile, Pharma have been some of the major culprits over the years.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline raindancer

Re: No Penalty for McLaren
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2007, 05:48:25 PM »
Come on guys ! We are missing the point here. The point is Mclaren were caught with Ferrari documents. Stupid !!!!!!!!!! I have seen a few cases of espionage ( Industrial) and you don't keep a record or a trail.

if you want to use Ferrari's logic that an Employee of the team and the Team is the very same thing then what you said there is wrong.

It is not ! Courts generally do not make that distinction.
McLaren were not caught with Ferraris documents but Ferrari gave mcLaren their documents. :)
Not proven.
if Coughlan=McLaren
Stepney=Ferrari.


McLaren NEVER EVER denied that Coughlan was in possession of the documents. they did however deny any of the rest of their team having seen them and that Coughlan was fired the very same day he told the others about it. if you dont want to believe it then fine, but don't accuse McLaren of dirty play unless YOU (or Ferrari) have proof.
It is called "damage control"


personally i find it a bit fishy that Honda's involvment in all this has been conveniently ignored. Honda made no secret of Coughlan and Stepney wanting to join them while this whole document trading was going on. which clerly makes McLaren not the intended recipient.
I fully agree. I would look at Honda. The japs play very dirty.


My replies in a glow. I agree with your sentiments to an extent.


also one other thing. remember earlier this year when Spyker were bitching about RBR and STR having identical cars? they said they had blueprints and documents to proove this. why the hell was there no investigation by the FIA in this case ey? its the exact same thing.

also dont forget the toyota issue. and toyot actually built a car that was 100% identical to ferraris. Toyota as a team were never even questioned let alone penalised.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 05:51:51 PM by raindancer »
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

 


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