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Author Topic: Driver of the round Hungarian GP  (Read 5172 times)

Offline johnbull

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #15 on: August 07, 2007, 11:06:24 PM »
That says far more about your assessment of Raikkonen than it does on your estimation of Hamilton, John.  ;)
Agreed. In fact I think we are all in agreement that Kimi is the best of the current lot, which makes Hami's performance even more respectable.

I think this also answer's Ali's last comment, but Ali how can you say Kimi all over Hami all race long was a lack of competition?

Are we so used to Hami's faultless performances that we shrug them off already? Remember this poor kid is only in his 10th F1 race - or is it 11th.

There are guys that have done a hundred and ten and still haven't achieved a quarter of what he has.
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Ian

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2007, 12:01:24 AM »
But not in the same car JB, vastly inferior
An aircraft landing is just a controlled crash.

Offline Chameleon

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2007, 03:08:34 AM »
It's a matter of character too, John.  Maybe I should detach myself from any opinion on the driver's character, but I can't.  I could never forgive the Shoe's obvious character flaws, even though it was pretty obvious that the guy could drive a bit too.

Alonso's little tantrums I find easier to forgive - the occasional flare-up is only to be expected when the guy has hot Spanish blood coursing through his veins.  But Kimi is something different from all of them.  His whole attitude and approach is different - he wants to win with a passion that dwarfs the others' yet he'll do it through his God-given talent and nothing else.  He turns up, has a snooze in the pits, and then climbs into the car and drives the wheels off it.

It's weird - he is pure racer when you put him in a car and yet out of it, it's as though he really couldn't care less.  Maybe he is just more balanced than any of them and knows that, when it comes down to it, it's just a race, for pete's sake.  What a guy, what a racer, what an enigma.

And so we come to Hamilton.  Sure, the guy can drive a bit and I was being won over by his performances.  But this weekend has made me step back again and say I'll wait and see.  I don't care how ambitious or talented you are, there is no excuse for talking to another human being as he spoke to Ron Dennis.  With those few words he revealed a spoiled brat who needs his backside tanning.

I'll give him time to grow up but, for the moment, he is just a bunch of talent with an immature character.  You may be able to judge his driving separate from who he is but I can't.
Never mind me - read :D

Offline johnbull

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2007, 08:44:17 AM »
This is a very interesting one. I'd love to answer it right now but I have work to do right now.

I'll try and get back to it this afternoon, but I see your point Chammy. There seem to be 2 very different sides to every BIG driver.

A perfect excuse for a very interesting discussion.

For later.
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Chameleon

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2007, 11:42:53 AM »
I look forward to it, John.  Indeed, I savour it!
Never mind me - read :D

Offline raindancer

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2007, 12:38:40 PM »
I would have really liked to see Hamilton in another car other than this years Mclaren. INHO the jury is still out as far as Hamilton's greatness or ability.
Those seemingly faultless performances have to be viewed in context and unlike Senna, Prost or even MS, he never drove for a under performing car and impress. Alonso was spotted when he first drove a Minardi and used to qualify 21st lots of times. Hamilton has never seen adversity and this situation may work to his detriment.

Hamilton is a talent no doubt, but I don't think he is exceptional and all these controversies will have an effect. There is talk that Ferrari are willing to offer $ 17 M to him next year. $ 165 K to $ 17 M will one hell of a raise, if it happens though.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline johnbull

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2007, 05:13:55 PM »
If we take the top 4 for starters, much as I am amazed by Hamilton and his ultra rapid progress, I am still the first to admit that both Kimi and Nando are more complete drivers. I still put Kimi and Nando a notch above the rest.

Chammy's description of Kimi is spot on. The guy never ceases to amaze. He looks so "couldn't care less" about everything, yet when he gets behind the wheel he just puts his head down - AND GOES. He is a pleasure to watch, and let's face it, it's not as though he's old either. He shows no emotion. He doesn't give the impression he is even enjoying what he's doing, even when he wins. Whoever called him ICEMAN hit the nail right on the head. I still reckon he could be World Champ this year, Max or no Max.

Nando. Well, hot blooded Latin, and has been showing it this season. But not before! Was it 2 or 3 years ago when he had the great Michael all over him at Imola with a superior car? Nando just kept his cool and if anyone was making mistakes it was Michael. That was Nando at his very best. There have been a few more recent occasions with Michael where Nando has stood his ground and not taken any nonsense.

But this season he seems more tempremental. More Latin. Is it the Lewis effect? He has made more mistakes. He doesn't smile so much - though having said that, when did anyone last see Kimi smile ::). He talks a bit too much and complains too much, again the Latin coming out of him, but put him in the car and he is ballistic too. Yes, on equal terms I reckon he is quicker than Lewis, but so he should be.

Lewis. We've all said so much about him. And rightly so. He is outstanding. No, he is not the World's best. Not yet. give him a chance. Remember he has only been GP racing less than 6 months, and how many guys have had 4 poles, 3 wins and 9 podiums in their first 6 months, whatever they were driving. There have been other more experienced drivers that have found themselves in World Championship winning cars, and none of them have done what Lewis has done. Look at your history books. Did Senna when he moved from a mediocre Lotus to the best car of the era, the Mc Laren? Did Prost?

Incidentally this is not meant to be in anyway derogatory towards the great Ayrton Senna. I still bow every time I mention his name.

And now to Massa. What can I say that I haven't already said? He's quick. He's charming. But he will only stay at Ferrari next season because Nicolas Todt is his manager. I'm afraid I just don't put him in the same league as Kimi and Nando who can both be guaranteed to be super fast always, everywhere. True World Championship material both.

Michael is teaching Massa alot, and Massa is learning well, but if I had to give points out of 10 for the top 4 this is how they would be:

Kimi 10.    Nando 10.   Lewis 8.   Massa 7.

Now this should create some interesting discussion! :yahoo:
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Chameleon

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2007, 07:53:05 PM »
We are not far apart on this one at all, John.  I would agree with your ratings on those four entirely.

My point was rather that I did not even consider putting Hamilton in as a driver of the day in Hungary because of what he is alleged to have said to Ron Dennis over the radio.  Interestingly, Monty has started another thread in which he says that the story is not true - and I must admit that, when I first heard it, I thought it was a concoction of the press.  But then so many sources seemed to confirm it that I was forced to accept it and Hamilton took a nosedive in my estimation.  I hope that Monty is right.

The case of Hamilton is further complicated by the common complaint that "any of the new drivers would do as well if you put him in that car."  It's an easy thing to say but impossible to prove since it isn't going to happen.  But it is true that we seem to have a lot of new drivers with outstanding talent this year and some might do as well as Hamilton if given the same opportunity.  Kubica and Kovalainen had difficult starts to the season but are now beginning to show real promise, Sebastian Vettel is much hyped and Adrian Sutil does wonders in the Spyker (okay, Alianora?).

So Hamilton remains difficult to classify.  Would he look as good in a Spyker or an STR?  Durned if I know.  We measure him against Alonso and think he must be good to give the champ such a hard time - well, yeah, he's good but let me see a bit more yet, is my response.

Talking of Alonso, those battles with Schumacher are perhaps the most amazing thing about him. He occasionally whinges and looks miserable outside of the car but put him in a battle with the Shoe and suddenly he is nerves of steel and flawless precision.  That is why we were so surprised by his numerous errors in Canada this year - we really didn't think the guy could put a foot wrong while driving.

But it was the circumstances - he was behind, having to take risks to catch up, and desperate to prove himself better than his young upstart team mate.  He pushed too hard and we saw the result.  So yes, he's human, but then so is Kimi.  I don't need to remind you of the occasional wild mistakes the Ice Man has made.

Hamilton is young, inexperienced and very talented.  In time he might become the great driver of his era.  But it's too early to throw that mantle on him yet; in a year or two we can begin to think about it.

A final word: Ayrton was incredible from the moment he sat in a Formula 1 car.  At his first test he was two seconds faster than anyone else had been in the same car.  In his first year he took a hopelessly uncompetitive Toleman and scored points with it.  Ayrton wasn't God but he was definitely his best mate...
Never mind me - read :D

Offline johnbull

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2007, 08:39:55 PM »
Ayrton wasn't God but he was definitely his best mate...

Quote of the day in my book. ;) :good:
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Chameleon

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2007, 08:49:49 PM »
Those whom the gods love die young.  God loved Ayrton with a passion.
Never mind me - read :D

Offline johnbull

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2007, 09:10:42 PM »
I was recently given a beautiful set of prints of Ayrton. Absolutely magic. I'm having a few of them framed to hang up at home.

There are a couple of beautiful portraits.

Got them here right in front of me.

1. Monza 86. Riding a kerb with the Lotus Renault turbo (JPS).

2. Imola 91 with Mc Laren Honda.

3. Monza 93 with Mc Laren Cosworth - tripping up on Damon's Williams at the chicane. Plenty of action in this one. Prost (Williams) is leading from Berger (Ferrari). Then there's Hill and Ayrton making contact with Shumi (Benetton) just behind followed by Alboreto I think (Ferrari), Herbert (Lotus), a Ligier with a driver wearing a white helmet, and a Shadow - or is it Wendlinger in the Sauber.

4. Imola 91 again. This time in the rain. Both this pic and pic 2 have plenty of spectators so I don't know which one would have been practice and which the race.

The portraits are from Monza 89 and a fabulous one of that dreaded Imola 94.

It's a beautifully presented set which i really treasure.
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Chameleon

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2007, 09:33:43 PM »
There follows something I wrote some time ago in honour of Lord Nelson (it was Trafalgar Day) but it could apply equally to Ayrton Senna it now strikes me:

His final act sets the seal on his greatness. To die at the moment of his greatest victory is the finest thing any hero can do. Not for Nelson the slow degeneration into a bristling curmudgeon, ranting against political developments beyond his time, as was the lot of Wellington. Not for him the eccentric lifestyle in a country cottage, writing self-congratulatory memoirs, as did Montgomery. Not even a disappearance into obscurity and an unnoticed death in some banal accident, as befell T.E. Lawrence, the famous Lawrence of Arabia.

No, Nelson did it properly, leaving us no memory of declining years, no later indiscretions to dull his bright legend. We have no option but to remember him at the height of his fame and greatness. Small wonder that we set him upon a pedestal so high in the middle of a square named for his finest hour. The man just couldn't lose.
Never mind me - read :D

Offline raindancer

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2007, 09:04:06 AM »
Great Chammy ! Really wonderful and to all the fallen greats who died in their hour of glory RIP.
Regarding Hamilton, that is the point I was trying to make. Ayrton sat in an inferior car and drove it  like no one else. Alonso's talent came to the surface when he used to qualify 20th or 21st in a MInardi. Hamilton has started with the best car of the grid, with the team principal backing him, had the benefit of a double world champion as a team mate, copied setups and drove. When I say put him in an STR and than compare the telemetry. A good or great driver will be found out.
The Mclaren was always not this good. But Mika being a good driver he is was made to look ordinary or even pedestrain by the car. The same car which Mika won the WDC, DC couldn't. It goes on and on.

Hamilton is good no doubt, but Kimi electrified people in a sauber. Lets get a perspective here, so if people say he is the best car, best team, best teammate, team principal as mentor, top 3 budgets in F1, Top 3 engines in F1,  it would be an extreme disappointment if he did anything less.
Lets wait this thing out.
Regards the best four drivers.
Sheer Speed/ Talent: Kimi
Complete driver: Alonso.
The rest are not close enough.
Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

Offline cosworth151

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2007, 03:57:59 PM »
Fine work, Cammy. I couldn't help but think of Jim Clark as I read it, also. He and Senna were both the best of their day, taken away at their zenith.
“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline romephius

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2007, 04:07:13 PM »
I am not able to match you guys on this thread for quality or quantity...but I will say this.....I haven't been a fan of F1 for long (8 years), the first team and driver I ever supported was McLaren and Mikka Hakkinen....simply a pleasure to watch drive (in my opinion)....then came Kimi Raikkonen...he replaced Mikka and I flowed with the new two cents worth is as follows.....even with the worst car on the grid Kimi could drive the wheels off the car and finish far better than the car is capable...he has gone through the tough times and proved himself time and again....Hamilton still has to prove himself and until he does, he is a lucky little boy in a mans game.

As always I could be wrong....but this is just my opinion



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