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Author Topic: Driver of the round Hungarian GP  (Read 4882 times)

Offline johnbull

Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2007, 05:00:29 PM »
  • Publish
  • OK so Hamilton never started in a Minardi or a Spyker. Hamilton started with Ron Dennis, Mercedes, Mc Laren and the best all round team bar none.  Why?

    Would Ron Dennis really have wasted a seat at Mc Laren if he didn't think LH was worth every bit of it. I suspect LH has come out beyond everybody's expectations, not just those of Ron D.

    I think we have to look at the other end of the grid, the quick end, to come to some conclusions. Lewis is mixing it with the 2 drivers we are all in agreement are a cut above the rest, Kimi and Nando. Would Sutil, Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, have done that. I suspect not, and I'll give Kubica and Kovalainen as my examples.

    Fizi was always way slower than Alonso at Renault, sometimes pathetically so. He started the season faster than HK but now HK is slightly quicker on average. Now compare the performances and results of LH and FA.

    Kubica. He is about on a par with Nick H as far as performances so far this season are concerned. Would you consider Nick H to be as quick as Kimi or Nando. I wouldn't.

    And finally, the world's top motorsport journalists are hailing LH as the next big thing. Is it possible they're all wrong?  Yesterday I think it was, I gave my top 4 with points to each. I put Kimi and Nando on 10 each and LH on 8. I stand by that.

    Quote Cossie, on a different tack.
    Fine work, Cammy. I couldn't help but think of Jim Clark as I read it, also. He and Senna were both the best of their day, taken away at their zenith.

    I fully endorse that. Clark and Senna are my 2 all time favorites, though Ronnie Peterson too has a special spot in my heart. Unfortunately he didn't live long enough to prove me right.
    Joe M. Anastasi.
    JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
    www.johnbullmalta.com

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #31 on: August 09, 2007, 05:10:15 PM »
  • Publish
  • Clark and Senna are my 2 all time favorites, though Ronnie Peterson too has a special spot in my heart. Unfortunately he didn't live long enough to prove me right.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline cosworth151

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #32 on: August 09, 2007, 05:13:38 PM »
  • Publish
  • Oops, wrong button. :crazy:

    What I was going to say was that I quite agree with that. I've read that Colin Chapman and Mario Andretti thought the same of him.

    One for the Strange but True file: Two Amereicans have won the F1 driving championship. In both cases, their teammate was killed at Monza, von Tripps and Peterson.
    “You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
    ― Bob Dylan

    Offline Chameleon

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #33 on: August 09, 2007, 05:37:50 PM »
  • Publish
  • Hmmmm, perhaps it's just as well that it looks as though Scott Speed is out of F1 for good...

    I am glad Rom mentioned Mika Hakkinen.  He reminded me that there were occasions when Mika looked exactly like Senna in the car - not every time out, mind you, but often enough for me to have enormous respect for him.  That supreme confidence, the flowing, precise style that made it look easy, the feeling that this was a maestro at the peak of his powers, Mika had that on some days.

    I can think of no other driver who has looked like that since.
    Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

    Offline johnbull

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #34 on: August 09, 2007, 06:13:27 PM »
  • Publish
  • Hmmmm, perhaps it's just as well that it looks as though Scott Speed is out of F1 for good...

    I am glad Rom mentioned Mika Hakkinen.  He reminded me that there were occasions when Mika looked exactly like Senna in the car - not every time out, mind you, but often enough for me to have enormous respect for him.  That supreme confidence, the flowing, precise style that made it look easy, the feeling that this was a maestro at the peak of his powers, Mika had that on some days.

    I can think of no other driver who has looked like that since.

    Kimi reminds me most of Mika. just Ice Cold Always, but flyers both.
    Joe M. Anastasi.
    JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
    www.johnbullmalta.com

    Offline Chameleon

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #35 on: August 09, 2007, 07:25:03 PM »
  • Publish
  • Agreed, John, but there was something extra about Hakkinen sometimes.  It's hard to define it but just occasionally I'd be watching Hakkinen in a GP without a thought of Senna in my mind and then suddenly I'd see it.  It was almost as if the ghost of Senna had taken the wheel and Hakkinen was flying.

    Senna himself talked about that state of being when a driver is doing his utmost and then suddenly breaks through to another level where he sets times thought impossible before.  Maybe that is what I was seeing, those moments when Mika entered that other world and became more than the sum of his abilities and the car's.  Fangio, too, talked of a moment like that in the last few laps of his famous Nurburgring win against the Ferraris.

    Perhaps my memories of Senna are fading and I am missing similar moments for today's drivers as a result.  All I know is that I saw them in Mika and haven't seen them since, even in Kimi.
    Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

    Offline johnbull

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #36 on: August 09, 2007, 07:32:18 PM »
  • Publish
  • I agree that despite Kimi's tremendous talent, I don't think we are in an era where one particular driver stands out - like Clark and Senna did, and even Shumi, though in his case there were minus points that effect our judgement even today.

    I have a feeling LH is going that way but it's still early days, so probably Mika Hakkinen was probably the latest of the OUTSTANDING drivers. There were a number of occasions when I would sit there with my mouth wide open in disbelief. remember Spa?

    I bet Michael does. ;)
    Joe M. Anastasi.
    JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
    www.johnbullmalta.com

    Offline Chameleon

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #37 on: August 09, 2007, 07:50:46 PM »
  • Publish
  • Spa is certainly the race that everyone remembers (and probably the one the Shoe was thinking of when he said that Mika was the greatest of all his competitors).  But I remember seeing this happen to Mika at Monza, the race where he crashed out through a silly mistake and then sat down and cried.  Incredible, isn't it, that that should be a race where I remember this effect happening?  Yet it did, I remember it distinctly, and it may even have been the cause of Mika's inexplicable error.  To have been flying like that, so much a part of the car and in an unassailable lead, setting lap times that were unnecessarily fast, what a feeling that must have been.  And how easy, too, to let it slip for an instant of self-congratulation.  Bang.

    To this day, I believe that's what happened and the real reason for Mika's tears.  He knew he'd blown, not the championship, but his moment with the gods...
    « Last Edit: August 09, 2007, 09:53:20 PM by Chameleon »
    Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

    Offline raindancer

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #38 on: August 09, 2007, 07:56:34 PM »
  • Publish
  • OK so Hamilton never started in a Minardi or a Spyker. Hamilton started with Ron Dennis, Mercedes, Mc Laren and the best all round team bar none.  Why?

    Would Ron Dennis really have wasted a seat at Mc Laren if he didn't think LH was worth every bit of it. I suspect LH has come out beyond everybody's expectations, not just those of Ron D.

    I think we have to look at the other end of the grid, the quick end, to come to some conclusions. Lewis is mixing it with the 2 drivers we are all in agreement are a cut above the rest, Kimi and Nando. Would Sutil, Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, have done that. I suspect not, and I'll give Kubica and Kovalainen as my examples.

    Fizi was always way slower than Alonso at Renault, sometimes pathetically so. He started the season faster than HK but now HK is slightly quicker on average. Now compare the performances and results of LH and FA.

    Kubica. He is about on a par with Nick H as far as performances so far this season are concerned. Would you consider Nick H to be as quick as Kimi or Nando. I wouldn't.

    And finally, the world's top motorsport journalists are hailing LH as the next big thing. Is it possible they're all wrong?  Yesterday I think it was, I gave my top 4 with points to each. I put Kimi and Nando on 10 each and LH on 8. I stand by that.

    Quote Cossie, on a different tack.
    Fine work, Cammy. I couldn't help but think of Jim Clark as I read it, also. He and Senna were both the best of their day, taken away at their zenith.

    I fully endorse that. Clark and Senna are my 2 all time favorites, though Ronnie Peterson too has a special spot in my heart. Unfortunately he didn't live long enough to prove me right.
    Nick was so much slower than Alesi at Prost.
    Don't Fight Forces ! Use them

    Offline Dare

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #39 on: August 10, 2007, 02:53:30 AM »
  • Publish
  • I'll admit Clark and Senna were special,but I
    think you have to put J Stewart in that special
    group too,every time he climbed in a race car
    I expected him to win.

    Also think Cevert belongs with Peterson as
    talents that were never allowed to reach
    their potential
    "The
    democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
    who are
    willing to work and give to those who would not."
    --
    Thomas
    Jefferson

    Offline Chameleon

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #40 on: August 10, 2007, 03:54:58 AM »
  • Publish
  • Peterson and Cevert fall into a period when I had no way to actually watch the GPs - I had to rely on reports and there weren't many of those available either.  So I'm really in no position to judge the two of them.  I did see Peterson in his last season but he was under strict orders to allow Mario to win that year, so it wasn't really a true indication of what he was capable of.

    I am one of those rare creatures, a Piquet (Sr) fan.  In his first full season in F1, he actually did what we might come to call a "Hamilton".  He was supposed to be number 2 to Niki Lauda in the Brabham team but outqualified and outraced him so often that Lauda retired abruptly in a huff in Canada, the second last race of the year.  I wonder if Hamilton will force the same on Fernando...

    Piquet is under-appreciated mainly because his great years were in the ground effect era.  He was unbelievable to watch in the Brabham BT49 - the car twitching as it hurtled through the corners.  They weren't supposed to do that, those ground effect cars - they either stuck to the road like glue or, if you reached the razor-sharp edge of adhesion, they'd immediately head for the boonies.  Piquet was the only driver of the time (and that includes Gilles) who could hold the car exactly on that edge, catching it with lightning reflexes every time it let go.  Not surprisingly, he was also the only driver to mourn the passing of ground effect.

    He once described Ayrton Senna as "that Sao Paulo taxi driver" - there's real bitterness for you.  There was some truth in the charge, however, as Ayrton was always known for his somewhat robust passing manouvers.  And there was one occasion, in Portugal, when Piquet finally got the upper hand on his countryman - sliding his Williams sideways through a corner (again, that was not supposed to be possible) to keep the lead he'd just taken from Senna's Lotus.

    If Nelsinho is half the driver his father was, he should be quite something...
    « Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 03:56:35 AM by Chameleon »
    Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

    Offline johnbull

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #41 on: August 10, 2007, 08:31:12 AM »
  • Publish
  • Ah, the memories.

    Nelson Piquet was always a favorite. He was such a character too, always taking the p*ss out of everyone, not least of all his team mates.

    Yes Chammy, I remember that first season when Lauda was supposed to be GOD, and this little squeak would humiliate him time and again.

    But Ronnie Peterson has always had a very special place in my heart. Always has had. I was at Monaco in - was it 1970 - when Ronnie had his first F1 race in Colin Crabbe's Antique Automobiles March 701. Ah, so it must have been 70. The car was painted in Crabbe's colours of yellow and brown. Being the Dunlop distributor in Malta, and with Dunlop heavily involved in F1 in those days, I always had passes for every GP, so whenever I went to a GP I could literally roam wherever I wished. I spent alot of time in the pits. Jackie Stewart was my favorite then.

    Don't laugh, but one of the things that has stuck in my mind since those lovely bygone days was Chris Amon's girlfriend. Her petit little frock was about 10 sizes too small, presumably by design rather than by accident. Even then she could give some of our WIZ's pit babes a run for their money. ::)

    Incidentally the 1970 Monaco was that fabulous one when Jochen Rindt pipped Jack Brabham at the last hairpin when lapping Piers Courage. Again, I watched it all. I had strolled down the pit lane to the hairpin to watch the last few laps from there, and saw it all unfold right before my very eyes.

    I next saw Ronnie Peterson the day after I got married. Carolyn and I were married in Wilmslow, Cheshire on Saturday the 31st March 1973. Just a few miles down the road at Oulton Park that weekend, the Gold Cup race for Formula 2 was taking place, so being a nice and dutyful husband I took my new wife out for a "day at the races" ;). If my memory serves me well, Ronnie had won, which made it all even better.

    And again in 1978 it must have been, I watched Ronnie and Mario Andretti anililate the opposition at the British GP at Brands with the black and gold Lotus 78s, till they both retired.

    Happy memories.
    Joe M. Anastasi.
    JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
    www.johnbullmalta.com

    Offline Chameleon

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #42 on: August 10, 2007, 11:20:50 AM »
  • Publish
  • One of my favourite video clips on YouTube (no doubt now removed by the officious little Bernard Ecclestone) was the one in which Prost is being interviewed and Nelson appears over his shoulder, squashing his nose sideways in perfect imitation of Alain's rather bent snout.  In fact, I often wonder who came to an end of his patience with the arrogant Tadpole and re-arranged his face with a well-aimed blow.

    From your comments regarding Chris Amon's girlfriend, John, it is quite clear that you were a champion talent spotter even then.  Nothing changes, it seems...  ;)
    Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D

    Offline johnbull

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #43 on: August 10, 2007, 02:29:35 PM »
  • Publish
  • My friends say I always have had an eye for talent. 8) ;) 8)
    Joe M. Anastasi.
    JOHN BULL RACING.   MALTA.
    www.johnbullmalta.com

    Offline Chameleon

    Re: Driver of the round Hungarian GP
    « Reply #44 on: August 10, 2007, 03:30:30 PM »
  • Publish
  • We realised that some time ago, John.   :DD
    Never mind me - read http://f1insight.madtv.me.uk/ :D