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Author Topic: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence  (Read 5649 times)

Online cosworth151

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2007, 02:49:14 AM »
Alan Henry of the Gaurdian was just on Dave Dispain's Wind Tunnel talk show on Speed TV. He said that the talk around the paddock is that this is an attempt at payback against Ron Dennis for his role in the Grand Prix Manufacturers' Ass'n. If Ron goes away, so will the problems.

It would be a terrible shame if that is the case, but it sounds like just the kind of thing that Bernie & Co. would do.

Ron has done as much or more than Bernie to raise F1 to where it is today. He deserves better.

“You can search the world over for the finer things, but you won't find a match for the American road and the creatures that live on it.”
― Bob Dylan

Offline johnbull

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2007, 07:46:01 AM »
Good speech Cossie. I agree entirely.

Max dislikes Ron for a number of reasons. The one you mentioned is a recent one. But there are others that go back a long time like the days when March were trying to make a competitive GP car and Ron already had one. Remember the M in March stasnds for Mosley. The guy has an enormous chip on his shoulder.

It seems that other than in Italy, and with fashist Max the general feeling is that McLaren have been correct and this is just a witch hunt.

And 2 faced Todt has the cheek to complain that the Spy Story is harming F1. >:D
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline romephius

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2007, 08:44:13 AM »
The simple fact is that this whole spy thing IS harming the image of formula 1....I for one am completely sick of the whole mess....all I care about is the racing.... I say enough of this rubbish and lets go racing


Offline johnbull

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2007, 11:21:46 AM »
These snippits from the British press say it all. Interesting to see how some of the World's greatest motoring journalists see it.

Fleet Street is full of praise for the way McLaren came through a tough weekend to 'stick it' to Ferrari in Sunday's Italian GP...

'This was a psychologically crucial victory for Fernando Alonso and McLaren after a turbulent few weeks at the centre of bruising attention and only four days before the FIA world motor sport council meets in Paris to consider whether the McLaren team obtained an illegal advantage from the use of leaked data from their famous Italian rivals.

'Alonso's first win at Monza may have been particularly satisfying for the Spaniard, but the Italian fans did not approve of the McLaren 1-2 over their beloved Ferraris on their home soil and greeted his appearance on the podium with boos and catcalls. No matter. Victory narrowed the lead of his team-mate, Lewis Hamilton, at the top of the world championship to three points with four races left to run.' - Alan Henry, The Guardian

'When all the interminable hoopla of an acrimonious weekend was finally silenced by the racing engines in Formula One's cathedral of speed, and all the political machinations could no longer interfere with what the sport is really about, McLaren won where it matters - on the track. And when Fernando Alonso led Lewis Hamilton across the finish line to score the team's first-ever 1-2 here at Monza, beleaguered team principal Ron Dennis could be forgiven for betraying the strain he has been under by weeping with the emotion.

'Forget allegations of theft, deceit, fraud, cheating, sabotage, or any of the other mumbo jumbo that has been spouted this season, and which some might believe to be F1's raison d'etre. Such outward manifestation of the investment of passion that drives these teams is the real secret of this competition, It will take only the intervention of a governing body that risks accusations of vengeance on Thursday to take away what McLaren achieved yesterday, on a day when they left home heroes Ferrari choking on their dust.' - David Tremayne, The Independent

'The performance by Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton and the entire McLaren Mercedes team at the Italian Grand Prix, at what has to be one of the most atmospheric tracks in Formula One, will be remembered as a remarkable example of focus and excellence in the face of seemingly crippling off-track distraction.

'Despite the open wounds in the team as a result of the crisis over the spy scandal and the bitter rivalry between their two drivers, McLaren went into Ferrari's backyard and thrashed them with a car that was superior and a race strategy that proved better suited to the task than that of its rival.' - Edward Gorman, The Times

'For once the interests of Fernando Alonso and McLaren coincided. The result was an emphatic display from the world champion and a first one-two at the Italian Grand Prix for McLaren in 41 years of striving.

'Alonso is an unusual individual. As one observer put it: "You want to like him, but he will not let you." His behaviour at McLaren in his first season with the team has exasperated the hierarchy and alienated some beyond the point of return. Doubts remain about his whereabouts next year. Yet here, in the most trying circumstances imaginable, Alonso stuck it to Ferrari in their own backyard.' - Kevin Garside, The Telegraph

'Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso extracted sweet revenge as they handed Ferrari their biggest beating at McLaren hands in 57 years yesterday.

'The warring team-mates shook off the swirling emotions of Spygate to romp to the Woking team's first 1-2 in Maranello's backyard and, barring a miracle, effectively kill off the title hopes of both Ferrari drivers.

'You could have heard a pin drop as 90,000 of the Ferrari faithful watched the Silver Arrows steal all the glory at the Italian Grand Prix thanks to the Spaniard's second victory in four races.

'And they would have had enough time to wander off and plant a couple of bugs before the first Ferrari, driven by Kimi Raikkonen, came panting over the line 27 seconds later in third place.

'Rarely can a triumph have been so sweet for beleaguered team boss Ron Dennis. As his cars roared over the line he cried tears on the pit wall and was hugged by wife Lisa.' - Byron Young, The Mirror
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Chameleon

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2007, 01:56:05 PM »
When is it going to strike the Italian press that, if the McLaren MP4-22 is as good as it is because of the Ferrari F2007 plans, it seems that McLaren are making a bloody sight better use of the plans than Ferrari are.  For one thing, the suspension doesn't break on a McLaren...  ;)
Never mind me - read :D

Offline johnbull

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2007, 05:09:53 PM »
Here, here. Just what I was thinking. I mean how big headed must you be to accuse a manufacturer that is making a car that is faster and more reliable than your own, of copying you. I suppose it's something to do with inflated Italian egos.

I sent a message to the television presenter during the Gp saying "Why would Mc Laren want to copy a car that is slower and more unreliable than their own" but needless to say they didn't publish it, even though the post race pow wow was a whole 90 minutes yesterday.
Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Alianora La Canta

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2007, 07:19:44 PM »
McLaren have lost their WCC points and got a $100m fine. However, the drivers will keep their points and McLaren will still get the TV money and benefits from their position. This is silly. This is like telling a pirate to hand back a stolen ship but that he may keep the cargo of rum stocked within the ship, even though the rum also belonged to the previous owner until acquired in the same way as the ship. Whether you think McLaren deserved to be punished or not, this decision makes no sense!
Percussus resurgio
@lacanta (Twitter) (Blog/Tumblr)

Offline johnbull

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2007, 08:02:25 PM »
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There's only one word.


Joe M. Anastasi.

Offline Steven Roy

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2007, 08:25:41 PM »
Ferrari International Assistance strikes again.  I am only surprised that Max isn't giving Ferrari th 100 million as compensation.

I think Max's memory must be going.  McLaren have to submit next year's car to examination to see if it is legal.  In 1997 he said no penalty of any description could be levied on the blessed Michael because each championship is a separate entity.


  • Guest
Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2007, 09:20:11 PM »
It is quite frankly a disgraceful decision.  I do not know how the FIA came to it and decided to penalise a team but not the drivers etc (not that I have heard any hint of evidence that makes McLaren guilty yet).  It is a blatant case of hitting back against Ron whilst protecting the casual support generated in F1 by not penalising Hamilton.  If the team is guilty, why are the drivers allowed to keep points won in a so called illegal car?  Because the car wasn't illegal, that's got to be why.

Max, you and your cronies have proven you are nothing but men on a vendetta.  F1 is now tarnished and the great McLaren brand is also tarnished due to this.  Apparently it might not just be the fine that causes financial penalties to the team, some sponsors could also pull out for not wanting the association of being with a team dubbed cheats by the FIA.  I may be a Williams fan, but McLaren has long been my second team and so todays decision saddens me.  I wonder how far Ron will be willing to take this in appeals.

Offline romephius

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2007, 09:32:26 PM »
McLaren DID have Ferrari technical information in thier possession (only at 1 members home), they have admitted that....unfortunately that makes them guilty by association (unfortunate, but it's the way the world works).  I honestly believe that they didn't use the material.  Fining them, ok, exclusion from this years constructors championship, wrong descision, unless the FIA can (or have) proved that the material WAS used, they have over punished McLaren.

Offline BobSpain

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2007, 01:50:40 AM »
Having read some of the comments about the 'spy scandal' (Hmmm!) One thing has re-emerged.  Remember Max Moseley's continuous and punitive decisions against Renault when they were battling against Ferrari for the Championship?  Remember the even weirder and potentially dangerous, if not fatal, adherance to 'the rules' when Michelin had not seen the new track surface at Indianapolis?

It was widely circulating that Max Mosely had pocketed a huge sum of money to 'aid' decisions in favour of Ferrari.  (they still couldn't win, even with MS driving for them)  It would now seem he is STILL getting very well paid for his 'interventions'.

His excuses for the decisions of the FIA are getting wilder and wilder, and punishments are getting heavier.  $100,000,000 fine, just for having (and ignoring) information about an opponent's car?  ALL the points already earned taken away and no further points to be awarded, regardless of finishing position.

And his reasons in Indianapolis...were they in the interests of safety?  Of course they weren't-they were in the interests of Ferrari.  Remember, too, that he has now managed (after several years of trying to force it through) to ensure Bridgestone, who also (so we hear) paid him a considerable sum to promote this, became the sole provider of tyres to Formula 1. 

Think on this...the US Grand Prix had been resurfaced, which affected the wear rate of the tyres.  Michelin had no opportunity to run on that surface, yet Bridgestone (the sole tyre supplier for the Indy 500) had raced on it a few weeks before.

Michelin tried their best to provide safe tyres that would handle the changed surface, but our friend Max denied that.  He refused to allow them to bring suitable tyres because 'the rules say only tyres that have been notified to the FIA, in advance, can be used.  Ralf had a tyre blow on the very high speed corner in question and several tyres were found to have worn dangerously, yet could they bring safe tyres...No!  So Ferrari gain another undeserved win!

And now here we are again, Ferrari have 'won' the Constructors' Championship.

Would we miss Max Moseley if he took his alleged illegal earnings and retired?  I very much doubt it.  Then maybe we could get back to exciting racing (this season has been great, so far) without the constant control of the FIA which has not saved any team the money it claimed it was aiming to save, but has made it almost impossible to create an effective racing car by good design and imagination, only by committee works...everything goes through the FIA, every design change, every engine spec., every piece of equipment...where did the supposed 'secret Ferrari information' come from?

A couple of guesses?  No, maybe just one.

The FIA is headed by someone who has no reputation for fair play, so let's get rid of him and either get rid of the FIA and adopt the talked about driver's association, or monitor the FIA to look after the safety of the drivers, circuits and cars and nothing else!


Offline Steven Roy

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2007, 03:38:34 AM »
johnbull, how can you call Max a facist?

Just because his father was head of the British Union of Facists and his parents were married in Joseph Goebbels' home with Hitler in attendance doesn't make him a facist. 

Yes it is all true.  Mummy apparently was quite taken with the nice mister Hitler.

Bob Spain,

I couldn't agree more.

When Max was elected he said F1 needed a strong Ferrari.  He has certainly done everything in his power to make that happen.  If his choice of successor (Todt) eventually takes over there is every chance we will have pro-Ferrari decisions in perpetuity.

It seems odd that two ex-Ferrari people were convicted of taking information to Toyota yet Max saw no need to penalise Toyota.

Online Dare

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2007, 04:16:07 AM »
F1 World Championship


Thanks Maxie
democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are
willing to work and give to those who would not."

Offline Chameleon

Re: World Motor Sport Council to consider new 'spy scandal' evidence
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2007, 08:15:21 PM »
I have never been a fan of Ron Dennis' nor of his team.  But this whole business has made me respect him more and more, whilst confirming me in my dislike of the way Ferrari and the FIA go about things.  Ron is currently deciding whether to appeal the penalty imposed by the WMSC and what holds him back from doing so is his concern for the sport if this farce were to go on any longer.

Todt and Mosley, however, have pursued their vendetta with total disregard for how this makes F1 look from the outside.  McLaren were supposed to be answering to the charge of bringing the sport into disrepute yet they have been sentenced and penalized for industrial espionage (something that is beyond the WMSC's powers to decide upon).

Now I ask you: exactly who has brought the sport into disrepute?
Never mind me - read :D


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